Quote from Spiffy

If there's a God I'm sure he/it/her can do whatever he/it/her wants lol.

Rofl... I like how you put "it" before "her"

Sexist. =P

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

More than likely, we would just not have the capacity to comprehend it.

The answer is either yes or no. If logic does not apply to god, then he can make a square circle. If logic does apply to god then he cannot.

@FrozenPhoenix Haha I thought no one would notice that. I did have it 'he/her/it,' but then the last part of the sentence would have 'it it' and I didn't want that lol.

Quote from Ash

The answer is either yes or no. If logic does not apply to god, then he can make a square circle. If logic does apply to god then he cannot.

Logic is limited by our comprehension. God is not limited by what we can comprehend about him/her.

Quote from Ash

So god can make a square circle?

If he wants to, he can.

That's just the thing with this entire thought, as said before, it's a paradox that we can't by any means understand. We cannot understand the entire omnipotence thing anyway, because to us, it simply doesn't exist and that gets into our thinking about logic. Not to mention that bringing logic into a religious thing never gets you anywhere.
I'm not religious myself, but I find it awkward to bring science and logic into this topic. Religion is something that should be accessed through questions of belief and morals (i.e. why is there so much suffering in the world, if god is so kind?) but not with a paradox thought like this.

Quote from Ash

The answer is either yes or no. If logic does not apply to god, then he can make a square circle. If logic does apply to god then he cannot.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "yes" because I think if there is indeed a god then logic doesn't apply.

The concept of something being endlessly powerful goes beyond logic...

You're a house fan right? It's like Cameron said, "Penguins might as well be speculating about nuclear physics"

.. or something of the likes.

Quote from ScHaLL

Why would logic apply to god?
Does it seem logic to you that there is a being that can and does control everything he wants to, created the earth and all that lives and grows on it? If you answer that question without thinking about wether or not you believe in god's existance, surely you'll answer "no". But if he does exist, despite all logic, which is what your initial "can god..." question assumes, then why would logic apply to him any further? If his entire existance defies all logic that we understand, why wouldn't his actions and abilities?

I think that's pretty much the same point the previous four posts were getting at =P

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

I think that's pretty much the same point the previous four posts were getting at =P

Yeah, it pretty much is. =Ü
Just wanted to throw in my explanation.

Quote from ScHaLL

Yeah, it pretty much is. =Ü
Just wanted to throw in my explanation.

Word.

No harm done. Three different spins on a similar idea paints a better picture of that idea anyway.

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "yes" because I think if there is indeed a god then logic doesn't apply.

The concept of something being endlessly powerful goes beyond logic...

You're a house fan right? It's like Cameron said, "Penguins might as well be speculating about nuclear physics"

.. or something of the likes.

If god is outside of logic then all logical arguments in favor of his existence don't apply.

Quote from ScHaLL]If he wants to, he can.

That's just the thing with this entire thought, as said before, it's a paradox that we can't by any means understand. We cannot understand the entire omnipotence thing anyway, because to us, it simply doesn't exist and that gets into our thinking about logic. Not to mention that bringing logic into a religious thing never gets you anywhere.
I'm not religious myself, but I find it awkward to bring science and logic into this topic. Religion is something that should be accessed through questions of belief and morals (i.e. why is there so much suffering in the world, if god is so kind?) but not with a paradox thought like this.[/quote]

Saying "This is something that we can't understand" is a cop-out. I DO understand the logical paradox of omnipotence. The definition of god is one to which logic applies then omnipotence is impossible.

Furthermore, it's not enough to say that religion is something we can't apply science or reason to, you have to explain WHY it's something we can't apply reason and science to.

And the only time that bringing logic into a religion debate gets you nowhere is when the person you are debating has no critical thinking skills.

[QUOTE=ScHaLL

Why would logic apply to god?
Does it seem logic to you that there is a being that can and does control everything he wants to, created the earth and all that lives and grows on it? If you answer that question without thinking about wether or not you believe in god's existance, surely you'll answer "no". But if he does exist, despite all logic, which is what your initial "can god..." question assumes, then why would logic apply to him any further? If his entire existance defies all logic that we understand, why wouldn't his actions and abilities?

Good god, do I really have to explain this to you?


Other people in the world believe that god exists, I'm sure you know this, I shouldn't have to explain, but apparently I do. Knowing my position on the existence of god, there is an implied "According to the claim that god exists" tied to the thread title.


And how exactly does your post invalidate my argument against the concept of omnipotence?

We humans don't understand everything around us.
So that's why there is no god.
If we can't prove it logically, then us, as rational beings, cannot believe in god any further than a mere speculation.

What every religion does, is hyping the fact that there is no reason for not having a reason of an existence of a god. This I just said, makes as much sense as the existence of an all powerful being that interfere in the human life and it's surroundings. It's impossible.

As for your dilemma. According to religion, God is a almighty being that can create everything and at the same time he can do whatever he wants with it.
Of course that he he can lift it, he didn't create something more powerful than him. But if he can't, it would be proved that there is something more powerful than him.

The reason none answers directly to this is because it's a "no go" area in the religious community.

Quote from Ash

So god can make a square circle?

Of course god can, because we can. In the realm of hyperbolic geometry, one can easily square a circle. It is hard to understand, but it is understandable.

Example invalid.

The Bible says God created Earth from nothing. Logically that's impossible, so God has already defied logic, meaning we can't apply logic to God. Yeah! =)

Quote from Ash

If god is outside of logic then all logical arguments in favor of his existence don't apply.

Nice if/then statement there.

If god is outside of logic then all arguments for or against god's existence doesn't apply.

It isn't possible to logically disprove anything anyway because before you know it whatever you thought was an impossibility could pop into existence. Lots of things that seemed like they should have been an impossibility at one point came back and suddenly weren't so impossible anymore.

If you had gone back in time and told people that we'd be flying around in tons of metal they would have thought you were insane.

The point is the idea of an omnipotent being is in fact beyond comprehension because there are limits to what we are able to comprehend or imagine. If there was an omnipotent being it would undoubtedly go beyond those limits and do things we cannot imagine.

Logically, why would an omnipotent being have to follow rules that we assume exist?

edit: One last thing...

What we are trying to do is futile, we're trying to drag something into the realm of logic that doesn't belong.