Yes, I agree entirely, I'm just saying that the predictable paths aren't really relevant.

We are totally free to do whatever, but with the law these days it can be a little difficult.

Just because the laws are there doesn't mean you can't do the things that they prohibit.

I know that, it's just now days Police can track if your car has insurance or if your regisration plate is correct with a little machine, so it's not exactly easy to break the law without being noticed.

That's not the point. It's almost a given that you will be punished if you break the law, but you are still physically capable of doing what the law prohibits.

If you don't have "free will" you still have the physical capacity to do those things, and for all intents and purposes it feels like free will. However, the theory proposes that each decision you make is not based on random choice, rather based on every precise interaction and situation in your past, each vast experience you've had, more than we can imagine (past the billions for sure). Personally, I think this is very likely, if you consider we are just machines. Take a computer program, you can make one to respond to a person like "cleverbot", and "iGod". Whilst their responses seem relevant and free of determinism, we know that they are a direct result of their programming and what they have learned from other speakers. If we knew all that had happened to that program we could correctly estimate what it would say.

Judging to everyone else I'm free to do anything I want...... so can I fly?

You sure as hell can try, here let me get you your cape.

I'll get the trampoline. :3

Quote from Jutsu

Some could argue that people in the holocaust weren't free, however I believe that they could have taken actions to be free.

Right because someone can resist being taken from their home, starved and killed.. You clearly are not educated if you think people had any "freedom" in Hitler's Germany. I know you're 13 years old, but don't even try suggesting that the jews, blacks, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. had any free will at a concentration camp. It sounds like you based your opinon on action movies or video games where you do not have any idea what it would be like to be stripped of your rights.

Quote from Tortuga

That free will is non-existent, that all decisions have already been mapped out and decided, when put into a certain situation your decision has already been made, your experiences and genetic make-up have already predetermined how you will react. That how you respond to this post, or this thread, is all dependent on how you were brought up, and the genes you received from your parents.
I also believe there is no such thing as luck or chance, if all is predetermined then how could something be considered lucky, as the possibility of the other event happening wasn't there.

You are 100% incorrect here my good sir. Google socialization for me and reply. In case you do not, socialization is the PROVEN theory that people can obtain culture, values, and norms from their social peers. A good example of this would be the assimilation of native americans, or as idiots call them "indians' in canada from around 1930-1960. Churches took native american children from their parents and raised them as catholics, you suggest that they will make decisions from their parents and there is no such thing as chance well, for one these children were beaten so they would have the same ideologies as them and i'm sure if you were born in say 1930 as a native american in canada, would that simply be because you were CHOSEN TO BE MISTREATED? Or simply because of poor government in that time? If you were a native american born today, and you would NOT go through the torture others had in the years prior wouldnt that make you lucky?

Clearly SPP isn't the greatest place to look for if you want to have a "enlightening" debate. And why is everyone on this site athiest? U CANT PROVE GAWD SO I DUNT WANNA GO TO CHURCH K THXBAI

Quote from Socks

Right because someone can resist being taken from their home, starved and killed.. You clearly are not educated if you think people had any "freedom" in Hitler's Germany. I know you're 13 years old, but don't even try suggesting that the jews, blacks, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. had any free will at a concentration camp. It sounds like you based your opinon on action movies or video games where you do not have any idea what it would be like to be stripped of your rights.


You are 100% incorrect here my good sir. Google socialization for me and reply. In case you do not, socialization is the PROVEN theory that people can obtain culture, values, and norms from their social peers. A good example of this would be the assimilation of native americans, or as idiots call them "indians' in canada from around 1930-1960. Churches took native american children from their parents and raised them as catholics, you suggest that they will make decisions from their parents and there is no such thing as chance well, for one these children were beaten so they would have the same ideologies as them and i'm sure if you were born in say 1930 as a native american in canada, would that simply be because you were CHOSEN TO BE MISTREATED? Or simply because of poor government in that time? If you were a native american born today, and you would NOT go through the torture others had in the years prior wouldnt that make you lucky?

Actually, the theory endorses socialization, as socialization is yet another thing that determines our actions. If your carer tells you not to swear, it's likely you won't swear in front of her. We can say that this is not free will, and if you did swear in front of her that would likely be based off many other past experiences, or perhaps her telling you not to in fact made you do it.

Clearly SPP isn't the greatest place to look for if you want to have a "enlightening" debate. And why is everyone on this site athiest? U CANT PROVE GAWD SO I DUNT WANNA GO TO CHURCH K THXBAI

Stop trolling.

You still have the ability to say it, you choosen not to. I'm arguing that you still have the ability too, which is free will.

Stop trolling? I'm serious, Zed just puts "no god, blah blah blah" which is silly, why even bring religion into a debate? Mind you I'm not religious myself but still, it's very hard to debate religion when you are doing grade 5 math earlier in the day...

Quote from Automaton

If you don't have "free will" you still have the physical capacity to do those things, and for all intents and purposes it feels like free will. However, the theory proposes that each decision you make is not based on random choice, rather based on every precise interaction and situation in your past, each vast experience you've had, more than we can imagine (past the billions for sure). Personally, I think this is very likely, if you consider we are just machines. Take a computer program, you can make one to respond to a person like "cleverbot", and "iGod". Whilst their responses seem relevant and free of determinism, we know that they are a direct result of their programming and what they have learned from other speakers. If we knew all that had happened to that program we could correctly estimate what it would say.

Define "free will" as opposed to free will, then.

And I believe that there is no such thing as randomness, merely systems in which it is beyond our capability to predict the outcome. Take a dice roll, for example. We say it is "random," but if we knew every factor that could contribute to the outcome, such as the precise force and direction of the throw and any air currents inside the room, we could accurately predict the result.

@Ghostly: I BELIEVE I CAN FLYYYYY...

Dream on.

Quote from Socks

You still have the ability to say it, you choosen not to. I'm arguing that you still have the ability too, which is free will.

In a physical sense, yes you can say it. But you never would have. It would have been impossible for you to say it because every event leading up to that moment causes you not to say it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufkrJkVqems

Quote from Socks

Right because someone can resist being taken from their home, starved and killed.. You clearly are not educated if you think people had any "freedom" in Hitler's Germany. I know you're 13 years old, but don't even try suggesting that the jews, blacks, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. had any free will at a concentration camp. It sounds like you based your opinon on action movies or video games where you do not have any idea what it would be like to be stripped of your rights.

He's not talking about the Jews. He's talking about the Nazi officers who claimed afterwards that they were only following orders and had no choice but to murder people.

Quote from Socks

Stop trolling? I'm serious, Zed just puts "no god, blah blah blah" which is silly, why even bring religion into a debate? Mind you I'm not religious myself but still, it's very hard to debate religion when you are doing grade 5 math earlier in the day...

First of all, let's find the gradient at (3,-9) of 2t+t^2 subject to y=2t^2+t^3, shall we?
x=2t+t^2 y=2t^2+t^3
x=yt y=x/t
dy/dx=(4t+3t^2)/(2+2t)
dy/dx=(t(4+3t))/(2(1+t))
x=yt
3=t(-9)
t=-3
dy/dx=(-3(4-9))/(2(-2))
dy/dx=15/-4
dy/dx=-15/4
so the gradient of the line 2t+t^2 subject to y=2t^2+t^3 at (3,-9) is -15/4

Ok? I know it's not the most advanced piece of mathematics I could have done for you but I couldn't be bothered to draw the graphs for 3D vectors or to type out De'Moivre's theorem. My point is, if I was doing year five maths earlier it's because I was bored.

Secondly, I believe that when I made the God comment it was a response to Nish explaining how such predestination fits in with my hypothesis. To be perfectly honest, the existence of a God barely affects my logic except in the sense to say that logic doesn't work and therefore no theory of the mind is valid.

Thirdly, feel free to pick me up on my assertions here. That is what I base my statement on. That is why I consider myself justified in stating it as fact rather than faith.

Quote from Sumfink

And I believe that there is no such thing as randomness, merely systems in which it is beyond our capability to predict the outcome. Take a dice roll, for example. We say it is "random," but if we knew every factor that could contribute to the outcome, such as the precise force and direction of the throw and any air currents inside the room, we could accurately predict the result.

That's true enough with a die roll, but there are some quantum effects which actually are random, such as the decay of a radioactive molecule.