I'm only saying it's too late because I don't see any practical benefit to infracting him like you want. I don't see what's "fair" about reverting a warning to an infraction after he's stopped the behavior we warned him for.

So, would it be good if next time he does something similar. We infract him from the very begining (if it's worth it) to avoid problems.

sounds good to me

Does he even deserve a warning? I don't agree with this right now because Jutsu has a decorated history of being a shithead and also a drama queen. Why is it that every single time this stuff happens you guys look the other way? It feels like this with pretty much all the prominent members that are constantly causing problems. I would like to know the exact reasoning you're being lenient on Jutsu with "warnings" when in most other circumstances there would be first an infraction and if the user has a history like Jutsu's possibly even a ban?

I mean, I can argue that he's been around long enough to know that isn't allowed. At what point do we draw a line like with 2D and Gyohdon? This same thing goes for Nish and Captain Cook and anyone else who's consistently getting warnings for this shit? All I ever see in here is loose defending on their behalf usually from people who have a history with them, or people completely ignoring this as an issue like with Mike. I pointed out quite a few times that Mike was only a problem BECAUSE of this attitude from people like Jutsu and Nish and yet that discussion point quickly fell away as if it wasn't a point at all.

The notion that we're becoming a 'hugbox' because we want to make this place more inviting is ridiculous. This is exactly what I was talking about where we have members who WANT to continue being assholes accusing us of being thought police just because we're cracking down on people being assholes. I'm sick of that, it's not even a "sensitivity" as Drone claimed earlier, it's just being a normal decent fucking person and there are quite a few members here that I don't think are capable of it. If Jutsu has a problem with it, he can fucking leave or get banned. I don't care any more, if he's going to act this way despite knowing better and have a bunch of you guys constantly condoning and defending his shitty nature he needs to be removed. I don't think he deserves any leniency any more, he's been given multiple chances. If he's not being a shithead to me it's gonna be someone else pretty much guaranteed.

It doesn't mean shit if he's capable of having a normal conversation at this point. He's obviously causing a disruption and it has to stop, no matter what.

I don't see anyone looking the other way, we're discussing it and everyone seems to agree that what he did was wrong on some level, we're just not sure how to proceed. That doesn't equate to "condoning and defending his shitty behavior", we're just aware of how ineffective an infraction is going to be (aside from camila) and we're exploring other possibilities to try and remedy this situation in the best way possible. Maybe that means he needs an infraction, maybe he needs a ban, maybe we should PM him and approach him outside the context of an authority figure. We don't know. If you have a suggestion that'd be lovely but I don't know why this is getting turned against us.

I am reading comments from you guys about how to handle this in a way that spares Jutsu's emotions, while in the same breath declaring that he's been warned and infracting him is not fair. I don't see this as fair or justified, I see this as you guys not willing to make an obvious tough decision, and Devour has already admitted to that he has a bias. This is what I'm referring to, because even though no one is saying "I CONDONE THIS BEHAVIOR", you're indirectly contributing to it by pretending this isn't as much of a problem as it is. This goes beyond just this specific incident, this happens every time one of those member's shitty behavior starts a bigger problem, you start looking at everything else aside from the root cause which is if these members would just be civil there wouldn't be any problems.

I also don't see your discussions as "looking for a way to proceed" since all you've done is express that he's already been warned and therefore an infraction isn't fair. It feels more like you're blocking anything worse than a warning with flimsy reasoning. I definitely think he should have an infraction to begin with, what's not fair is that he wasn't given one in the first place. I don't see why anyone would think "the best way possible" involves cutting Jutsu slack, because from what's been posted so far that's the impression I'm getting. I'm angry at this because it's completely ineffective, and ONLY feels like you're just trying to find a way to not have to deal with Jutsu being moody, even if that means treating him specially and letting him off in this case.

I'm trying to underline how little you guys seem to care about the actual problem this forum and community has, and how it seems like you're constantly doing logical gymnastics in order to convince yourself it's not a problem. I just don't get it. This is a clear example to me of someone who went out of his way to be a shithead to multiple people and the best you can muster up is "he's already been warned, no need for an infraction"? I'm trying to get you guys to recognize that at this point warnings and infractions are once again ineffective since the receiver just accepts it and moves on until it's expired, a clearer message needs to be sent to everyone involved even if that involves making Jutsu angry. Who cares about Jutsu in this case, he brought it on himself.

EDIT: Perhaps I'm being too presumptuous and ambiguous with who I'm accusing, having read every post multiple times I don't think you guys are looking the other way as much as I first believed, my history of having a problem with this behavior is probably affecting how I interpret your posts. At the same time, I'm still seeing a bit of the logical gymnastics I was talking about, especially since the last posts before mine seemed to be a conclusion that "next time we'll do it right". No, we deal with this now. I'm sick of "next time". All I would like is for some serious discussion about which punishment we should issue instead of whether or not we should even punish him, because what he did needs to have some serious repercussion and as you said Jutsu shouldn't be here if he can't handle it.

My gawd, thank you Jeff. I was getting tired of this after several hours of discussion.

Am I allowed to give him an infraction fir flaming right in this moment? I'll gladly send him one to leave it clear that we are actually not going to tolerate that kind of bheavior again, and I swear I'll do it in the nicest way possible.

Honestly I would much rather see Jutsu banned. His behavior and history is not acceptable and I'm starting to think this is the only way we'll be able to get a message across.

Maybe a day ban won't be "as ignored" than a simple infraction?.

Quote from Jeff

This is a clear example to me of someone who went out of his way to be a shithead to multiple people and the best you can muster up is "he's already been warned, no need for an infraction"?

Quote from Exilement

if he outright refuses to behave around here he needs to accept the fact that he'll be punished for it. He doesn't get to blatantly break rules and then act indignant when he gets the appropriate punishment for it. I'm all for calling people out on their bullshit but he has no justifiable reason to be that angry over a post like that.

We have standards and rules which everyone is expected to follow and we're plenty lenient when people actually have a good reason for their outbursts, but I don't see one here beyond the fact that he has his own demons he's dealing with, which I can empathize with up to the point where he can't control himself in an environment in which he is expected to follow simple guidelines. If he can't do that he shouldn't be here.

Quote from Exilement

He just needs to accept that we exist to deal with problems and if he's going to cause them, he's going to get our attention. If he seriously cannot accept that fact then he really doesn't belong here, as much as I like him as a person.

This conversation is starting to sound familiar, I'm just going to sit out of it if it's going to turn into this again. I get that you're probably playing catch up but come on, don't treat me like I'm just here trying to keep him from being punished when you're echoing things I said two pages ago. The only reason I was discouraging an infraction is because that's all camila kept talking about, I'm allowed to disagree that it's the best course of action at this point. That doesn't mean I don't think anything needs to be done.

A ban seems extreme for this specific incident, at least to me. I'm not signing off on it unless everyone else thinks it's the only recourse we have here.

edit: caught your edit too late

See my edit. I also see this same behavior when you say "a ban seems extreme", since as I said all you seem to be doing is telling everyone else that their punishments are too much without offering any real meaningful alternatives or clear reasoning. I fail to see how it's extreme given you've called for a ban for less especially with Mike who committed the oh-so-harmful sin of lying to you in a PM, yet in this instance where Jutsu made awful comments directly to multiple people including members of staff you think a ban is too extreme? Maybe if Jutsu lied to your face you'd see it differently. There's also a precedent that users with a history of this behavior have it escalated to the point where this is the only thing we can do, and I feel that way with Jutsu. He's obviously so arrogant that he takes pride in being condescending to the mods, I don't see how we shouldn't be giving him at least his last warning.

Quote from Camila

Maybe a day ban won't be "as ignored" than a simple infraction?.

I'm thinking a week ban for him to chill the fuck out and a warning PM telling him that I don't care if he disagrees with how we run things, if he doesn't follow the rules like everyone else he will be permanently banned, final warning.

Quote from Caelo

So is Jutsu done being an aggressive asshat or is he still biting everybody's heads off?

I want to know if it's safe for me to even be here.

Caelo shouldn't have to feel this way about posting

Quote from Jeff

See my edit. I also see this same behavior when you say "a ban seems extreme", since as I said all you seem to be doing is telling everyone else that their punishments are too much without offering any real meaningful alternatives or clear reasoning.

clear reasoning:

Quote from Exilement

I'm only saying it's too late because I don't see any practical benefit to infracting him like you want. I don't see what's "fair" about reverting a warning to an infraction after he's stopped the behavior we warned him for.

alternatives:

Quote from Exilement

Maybe that means he needs an infraction, maybe he needs a ban, maybe we should PM him and approach him outside the context of an authority figure. We don't know.

The possible solutions have already been presented, I don't have anything new to offer and it's not up to me to decide which course of action to take so I'm mostly waiting to hear what everyone else thinks about banning him since that's the only solution you seem to respect and I have nothing to say that's going to make you see anything differently. My opinions are being addressed as some sort of "behavior" you think I'm prone to and now you're being patronizing over the whole Mike situation despite the fact that we were in agreement when it was resolved, so this whole thing has felt like a fight since you showed up and I'm quickly losing any interest in dragging it out any further. I don't need this.