You do realise your argument is full of contradictions.

Not many. Although I would say post-natal abortion is still illegal in most countries.

Quote from Envoy

You do realise your argument is full of contradictions.

How so?

Quote from Zed

Not many. Although I would say post-natal abortion is still illegal in most countries.

Unfortunately I live where it is "frowned upon" but still legal.

I exaggerated quite abit, however there are still some.

You are definitely against suicide, however it should be done under certain circumstances.

If you are definitely against suicide then you are against it in all circumstances. You will try to stop them, however it is not your choice, yet taking such a stance should you intend to stop them regardless of who's choice it is. If you are against suicide you are stating that people should not be given the option to take their own lives.

Being against suicide also deprives those who intend to kill themselves of a right to do so.

Quote from Obcidien

Unfortunately I live where it is "frowned upon" but still legal.

"Post-natal" meaning "after birth". ie. Murdering your child.

Quote from Envoy

I exaggerated quite abit, however there are still some.

You are definitely against suicide, however it should be done under certain circumstances.

If you are definitely against suicide then you are against it in all circumstances. You will try to stop them, however it is not your choice, yet taking such a stance should you intend to stop them regardless of who's choice it is. If you are against suicide you are stating that people should not be given the option to take their own lives.

Allow me to explain a bit, Should someone be in a war and they get their leg blown off by a grenade of mine or whatever, they should be able to choose death, I'm not saying grab the nearest AK and blast yourself, but have someone end your pain, it isn't a choice I would want them to choose but I feel that in a case such as this they should have the choice between dying in extreme pain or dying their friends are kind enough to perform a coup de grace (Mercy killing)

Also how is the second one a contradiction? I said that I would try to stop the person but it isn't my choice if they do it or not, I never said that I would give up and watch them kill themselves, but it isn't my choice. They can decide that they want do it and I can decide to try and stop them.

[Edit] They shouldn't be given the option, but then again, murderers aren't given the option to kill someone, they just do it, just like people who commit suicide.

This saying applies to most (Not all) cases of suicide;

Suicide - a Permanent solution to a Temporary problem.

You say it's fine to accept death, but not choose it, I can't think of a way to justify that

Back when I had suicidal ideations I would never think, "I want to be dead". It was always "I don't want to be alive". At a certain point, the thought of living through another day feels like staying up another hour after being awake for days.

If you enjoy your life, if you're healthy and well-adjusted, you can't even relate to that pattern of thought. Hell, now that I'm doing better, I can barely remember what it was like aside from vague recollections or specific thoughts. It's one thing to be personally against it, and to decide never to do it, but it seems kind of insulting to tell someone "you have to live the rest of your life, ending it is unacceptable".

If it's a last-minute reaction to something (like getting your leg blown off on a battlefield), then yeah, I'd say it's a bad idea. But if someone spends months or even years wanting to end their life, they should have every right. Taking that control away from them would make it much, MUCH worse, and keeping them alive would be analogous to torture.

Quote from Zed

"Post-natal" meaning "after birth". ie. Murdering your child.

Oops, I missed the "Post-natal" part of it, I read it as "I would say pre-natal abortion is still illegal in most countries." My bad :P

Quote from Exilement

You say it's fine to accept death, but not choose it, I can't think of a way to justify that

Back when I had suicidal ideations I would never think, "I want to be dead". It was always "I don't want to be alive". At a certain point, the thought of living through another day feels like staying up another hour after being awake for days.

If you enjoy your life, if you're healthy and well-adjusted, you can't even relate to that pattern of thought. Hell, now that I'm doing better, I can barely remember what it was like aside from vague recollections or specific thoughts. It's one thing to be personally against it, and to decide never to do it, but it seems kind of insulting to tell someone "you have to live the rest of your life, ending it is unacceptable".

If it's a last-minute reaction to something (like getting your leg blown off on a battlefield), then yeah, I'd say it's a bad idea. But if someone spends months or even years wanting to end their life, they should have every right. Taking that control away from them would make it much, MUCH worse, and keeping them alive would be analogous to torture.

I used to be suicidal myself, I know what its like, I didn't tell anyone about it and when I myself got better I kept thinking "Good lord, look at everything I would have missed had I gone through with it."

Ever since then I have been very strongly against suicide, and whenever I hear of someone ending their lives I feel sorry for them and wish they hadn't gone through with it, in the hopes that they could have seen how beautiful life really is.

Quote from Obcidien

Allow me to explain a bit, Should someone be in a war and they get their leg blown off by a grenade of mine or whatever, they should be able to choose death, I'm not saying grab the nearest AK and blast yourself, but have someone end your pain, it isn't a choice I would want them to choose but I feel that in a case such as this they should have the choice between dying in extreme pain or dying their friends are kind enough to perform a coup de grace (Mercy killing)

Quote from Obcidien

Also how is the second one a contradiction? I said that I would try to stop the person but it isn't my choice if they do it or not, I never said that I would give up and watch them kill themselves, but it isn't my choice. They can decide that they want do it and I can decide to try and stop them.

I see. So you are for assisted suicide, however against suicide in general.

Considering that you are against suicide, you are claiming that the person should not be given a right to kill themselves and no one "should be seeking death". No one is allowed to kill themselves. Therefore you are obliged to prevent them from ending their life even if they don't wish you to. If you were to support your contention you would outright deny that the person who plans to commit suicide has the right to choose their death. Overall, it is "your choice".

Quote from Obcidien

Suicide - a Permanent solution to a Temporary problem.

I just want to make sure and let you know that not everyone wants assisted suicide because they're sad. Depression may be temporary, terminal cancer and other things aren't.

EDIT: nvm I've read your posts more closely and you've touched on that. I'll still leave the post here though lol.

Quote from Obcidien

This saying applies to most (Not all) cases of suicide;

Suicide - a Permanent solution to a Temporary problem.

How do you *know* their issues are temporary?

Quote from Envoy

I see. So you are for assisted suicide, however against suicide in general.

Considering that you are against suicide, you are claiming that the person should not be given a right to kill themselves and no one "should be seeking death". No one is allowed to kill themselves. Therefore you are obliged to prevent them from ending their life even if they don't wish you to. If you were to support your contention you would outright deny that the person who plans to commit suicide has the right to choose their death. Overall, it is "your choice".

It is my choice to deny their right to kill themselves but their choice to ignore me and do it anyways. If it were "Overall my choice," Suicide wouldn't even be a word in the dictionary, it just wouldn't be done. But that isn't the case, no matter how hard I try to stop it there will always be someone who kills themselves.

So no, it isn't overall my choice

You're twisting his words and missing the entire point. I'll make it easier to understand.

Let's take something that virtually everyone is against.. uh, how about, innocent people getting murdered. Can we agree that usually sucks? It's unacceptable, right? Okay good, we're in agreement. Which is convenient, since both involve the premature ending of a life.

So now, let's frame Envoy's post in terms of murder instead of suicide:

Quote from Envoy

Considering that you are against [murder], you are claiming that the person should not be given a right to kill [another person] and no one "should be seeking death". No one is allowed to kill [others]. Therefore you are obliged to prevent them from [murdering someone] even if they don't wish you to. If you were to support your contention you would outright deny that the person who plans to commit [murder] has the right to [kill someone else]. Overall, it is "your choice".

That was easier than I thought it'd be. Your response seems a little weird now, doesn't it?

If someone presented the above case to me, I wouldn't hesitate to say, fuck yes I would stop all of the cold-blooded murders if I could. I wouldn't twist the wording around and say "Well, it's not like I could stop all of those murders by myself, they'll just ignore me and kill people anyway". That's not what he was asking and it's not why he asked it.

Suicide exists. People are going to kill themselves. Virtually every time it happens, it's unacceptable to you. So, the question is, if you theoretically had the ability to personally stop every potential act of suicide from happening, would you do it?

If no, why not? Why do you believe they should go ahead and do something you're so strongly against? Why wouldn't you act to prevent something you're strongly against, even in a theoretical situation that requires no actual work?

If yes, well that's a little scary isn't it? A person makes a conscious decision to end their own life for their own reasons. Whatever reasons you have for considering it unacceptable, you actually believe those reasons are more valid than theirs. That they are wrong, no matter what, simply because their decision goes against what you believe is the "right" way to act.

That's what envoy meant by "overall, it's your choice". Hopefully you see the massive cognitive dissonance that comes with holding such a strange outlook.

ok, lets see if the same thing works with mine shall we?

Quote from Obcidien

It is my choice to deny their right to kill [another person] but their choice to ignore me and do it anyways. If it were "Overall my choice," [murder] wouldn't even be a word in the dictionary, it just wouldn't be done. But that isn't the case, no matter how hard I try to stop it there will always be someone who kills [another person].

So no, it isn't overall my choice

hey that wasn't so hard either :D Don't quite see how changing the words are relevant but we'll stick with it I guess. I don't see why my view is strange either, you know wanting people to live and all.

And yes, If I had that power then I would use it, it's only natural to think that your own beliefs are right and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. I'm that same way, I admit it, if you told me the earth was flat when all my life I thought it was round I'd say; "What the fuck have you been smoking?"

I know suicide exists, so does murder, rape, divorce, theft, and every other form violent, greedy act committed by human beings. That doesn't mean I have to like it, or even that I have to accept it. If possible I would get rid of it all given the chance. I don't care who it scares, if it makes the world a better place to live in then go ahead and cower in fear. Just don't expect me to come around passing out candy and cake because you don't agree with me.

[edit] I didn't twist his wording at all, I took his post (Completely in tact) and responded in the way I thought best addressed his question.