Quote from WyzDM

I just make charrogs lol. Idk why no one else is doing this.

Kinda adds to Rain's point though.

On short maps I find this macro works but on medium ones I usually can't pull it off. The point that it works at all is still quite a major problem obviously.

Quote from Skeletonxf

On short maps I find this macro works but on medium ones I usually can't pull it off. The point that it works at all is still quite a major problem obviously.

Just play more patient and don't combine unless absolutely necessary. Whenever you do, run at him. You may lose a charrog, but chances are you'll still hold tower and keep it alive for more than the 16 seconds needed for the next fire to come in and grab spawn. Then it's a cakewalk, and you can just charrog anytime anywhere and burn all the things.

It's really dumb and it completely ignores whatever the opponent is trying to do. There's no conversation, in a matter of speaking.

I do this to chaos players to, cause unless they can actually get enough wings, what ground force is gonna do enough damage to stop an onslaught of charrogs? They're ridiculous.

Charrog for #1 unit of all time, hands down. Archidon for #2.

Quote from Skeletonxf

What the hell? Elementals has no micro scorps v archers because it's a game of chase and Order can't even take down the trees because tree root. Neither player micros anything during it.

Just get a scorp stuck on bottom of map :)

@skele So basically give elementals archers so they could fight order's archers? When would you not respond accordingly to the opponent's micro and macro anyway, that's how this game works. Maybe you'll say tree vs order. Trees require good placement, scorpion control, good root targetting and scorpions are useless without upgrades. I admit it doesn't require as much micro as forward kiting but still. You have to break the old habbit of keeping weak archers with you otherwise they will be easy target for root.

Charrogs have very weak melee damage. They can't really claw their way through turtles. Their burn damage and dig is kinda underwhelming.

You guys seem to act as if the only way elementals plays is charrog and tree massing. If that was true then sure elementals would need quite a bit of fixing. But it's like shadow mass, the option is there and it's really annoying, but it's not the best way to use the empire.

Quote from Skeletonxf

What the hell? Elementals has no micro scorps v archers because it's a game of chase and Order can't even take down the trees because tree root. Neither player micros anything during it.

If you want to effectively kill archers and suppress them without becoming overwhelmed they must be microed in groups and not allowed to auto target simply because an enemy unit is in range, 1. To effectively suppress the archers the ele player should be controlling his scorps to single target certain archers; two hits from a scorp translates to one dead archer to death blossom, 2.

^ this counts as micro not to mention whilst paying attention to the order players other units all the while. Deathblossom doesn't make trees live. Scorch, fires, and other support are what makes trees live unless the ele player is massing like crazy on trees; this case still requiring some sort of micro although minimal in that one aspect.

The order player is kiting and keeping his units alive as he combats the siege-like quality of the scorps. more micro.

@wyz's post regarding charrogs. I agree, if microed correctly, charrogs are a pain in the ass and have a bit too much health for their own good. I refrain from using charrogs in general and go for style points :D

I also agree with nutsophast now that I read the following page. However, charrogs do in fact have a bit too much health and cannot be dealt with very easily if they are in mass groups and supported by fires and waters. Top it off with a V and you are in for a world of hurt.

Quote from nutsophast

Charrogs have very weak melee damage. They can't really claw their way through turtles. Their burn damage and dig is kinda underwhelming.

This just isn't accurate... I am pretty high ranking in DM, so deal with Ele players often, and charrogs have way too much health, I have even had triple CA, with ninajs, albows, max population, and a magikill and double walls and still had Ele players punch right through with relatively ease (though, generally, that is aided by laggy play conditions)... A few waters is all it takes... and before waters were nerfed, the build was 100% completely unstoppable very early game to boot...


There burn damage is also more powerful than you realize I think...

Tends to be why I stray away from DM in general. Its not balanced in general and to make things worse there are certain strengths for each empire that one can capitalize on without needing to earn it? Ill stick with classic. I played DM a bit just to give it a chance and its kinda gross tbh.

Yeah, I get some people like, some people hate DM. I like it, it is a fun change, and wish we had a few more game modes to choose from honestly. Classic, since most players are order, is basically archer ham spam every match, so so little variety, whereas in DM, you get to see a ton of builds and macros that can be effective, all based on micro skill and good decision making.

Quote from PUMU

If you want to effectively kill archers and suppress them without becoming overwhelmed they must be microed in groups and not allowed to auto target simply because an enemy unit is in range, 1. To effectively suppress the archers the ele player should be controlling his scorps to single target certain archers; two hits from a scorp translates to one dead archer to death blossom, 2.

@wyz's post regarding charrogs. I agree, if microed correctly, charrogs are a pain in the ass and have a bit too much health for their own good. I refrain from using charrogs in general and go for style points :D

Ele really doesn't need micro to win. You basically just wait until the scorpions are grouped then click global attack ._.

Also what is style points with ele. Blind gate into mass scorch on the statue?

Quote from nutsophast

@skele So basically give elementals archers so they could fight order's archers? When would you not respond accordingly to the opponent's micro and macro anyway, that's how this game works. Maybe you'll say tree vs order. Trees require good placement, scorpion control, good root targetting and scorpions are useless without upgrades. I admit it doesn't require as much micro as forward kiting but still. You have to break the old habbit of keeping weak archers with you otherwise they will be easy target for root.

Charrogs have very weak melee damage. They can't really claw their way through turtles. Their burn damage and dig is kinda underwhelming.

You guys seem to act as if the only way elementals plays is charrog and tree massing. If that was true then sure elementals would need quite a bit of fixing. But it's like shadow mass, the option is there and it's really annoying, but it's not the best way to use the empire.

Because the only way to play Elementals effectively is Tree massing or Charrog. Others have already pointed out how Ele doesn't have much micro currently so I won't bother.

Damn right Charrogs have weak melee and their health is overkill. Raise their dps and lower their health. And you might notice that Chaos does not need archers to fight Order. Elementals just needs its ranged units to be able to snipe Archers not in the same way that Chaos does with Poison but with some way of handing out damage at range whilst moving around on the map. If Air claps were a viable thing and Fires had better ways to chase down units Ele could probably manage Archers with its ranged units. As for 'keeping weak archers' a group of 3 trees can kill a full health archer so that point is totally irrelevant.

Quote from Skeletonxf

Because the only way to play Elementals effectively is Tree massing or Charrog. Others have already pointed out how Ele doesn't have much micro currently so I won't bother.

Damn right Charrogs have weak melee and their health is overkill. Raise their dps and lower their health. And you might notice that Chaos does not need archers to fight Order. Elementals just needs its ranged units to be able to snipe Archers not in the same way that Chaos does with Poison but with some way of handing out damage at range whilst moving around on the map. If Air claps were a viable thing and Fires had better ways to chase down units Ele could probably manage Archers with its ranged units. As for 'keeping weak archers' a group of 3 trees can kill a full health archer so that point is totally irrelevant.

Only way to win is tree mass and charrog? That is very untrue. There is micro you do, just different and not nearly as much as kiting. Kind of like dead massing.

Air claps are a viable thing, their function of infinite range after lock-on is quite deadly. Fires are better for keeping away melee damage and defence. Fires, airs, cycloids and V can definitely deal damage well while moving around. Infernos has massive damage but less mobility. Cycloids, V aren't ranged units and fires fill a different role. You seem to be in the mindset that elementals need ranged units to deal with order's ranged units if they are to be balanced.

I agree charrogs will need some tweaking. Not necessarily more dps, but just make their abilities more prominent and useful. Maybe more damage dealing. Others who (probably) have more experience against charrog mass than me have pointed out valid points which I mostly agree with. Perhaps their health can be reduced.

The digging is usually used just for a quick stun which I don't think is good. Maybe reduced digging time and underground speed?

Maybe burn can deal damage on contact besides the DoT, it seems a bit weak but I don't know how it is on the receiving side. Juggers are frontline melee units while spears are a tank unit. I think charrogs should be a kind of crowd control tank.

Quote from Zomar

Ele really doesn't need micro to win. You basically just wait until the scorpions are grouped then click global attack ._.

Also what is style points with ele. Blind gate into mass scorch on the statue?

@zomar
Need I say, V, Cycloid, charrogs (for those who use them), Earths, waters, fires. All of these require micro to play ele effectively and/or correctly.
Global attack translates to not prioritizing units like merics and archers and allowing your units to attack units that there dps cannot handle like spears= bad= not high level ele gameplay= not even mid level ele= requires micro. Your opponent will be pressuring you with his units in which case the scorps will auto target from the range that they will be unless the trees are extremely far back. Scorps will have to be pulled behind the trees themselves for a moment in order to group first; sacrificing some health from your trees. Global command, lets say charge, into a spear will be a waste of time and allow your opponent to attack your trees after you've lost your scorps; now with less time between the next helping of archer pressure your opponent will be giving, which then translates to a repeat in the process in which you still must micro the group of scorps directly at his archers and not simply use the global command. If you are accompanied by your support of fires and waters like you should be you will be having to micro your way into a proper placed defensive scorch should you be at the current state of stalling into siege. Too far out and your waters will be hit by archers. Too far in and your scorch might not be effective. Placing the water at a certain position in relation to your units you are currently defending requires micro. Doing this whilst your scorps are spawning requires micro if you don't want your scorps to die from the archers as your scorps autotarget. Basically, everything in this game requires some bit of micro no matter how you look at it.

@skele
Three trees for one archer?
It only takes two deathblossoms to kill an archer.
2 hits from a scorp and one deathblossom is the thing that nutsophast, myst, and myself are fully aware of and utilize at any moment we can. Sniping WEAK archers. Send a full health archer at us and we are unlikely to deathblossom it as its a waste to fire two or more deathblossoms at it.

"Because the only way to play Elementals effectively is Tree massing or Charrog. Others have already pointed out how Ele doesn't have much micro currently so I won't bother."
Do you even realize how incorrect a statement that is? Why then do tree massers still lose to order turtles late game and/or lose to midgame with improper setups.
I play using only three trees EVERY game. This allows me to suppress archers to the extent that I will need to and conform to the macro comp of the enemy players choosing. Spear/archer/meric? I opt for V. Sword/archer/meric into turtle. I opt for V and/or cycloids to prevent super stall.
Tree massers cant effectively deal with shadows/magikill comp. By going sword/archer/meric into shadows and magikill the tree masser can be stopped especially if the ele player doesn't micro and/or support themselves with other units.

At the last post above mine, charrogs are just gross health wise and I agree that at this present moment, they have wayyy too much health for any decent interaction between ele and order players at certain points and definitely the same can be said for EvC short maps.
Decrease the health and buff damage slightly seems okay with me as long as the damage increase isn't something drastic or even worse.

Your definition of tree mass seems way off from mine. 3 Trees is 9 scorps and 27 pop. That's a huge chunk of most of your army pop wise and health for tanking wise.

Anyway we're going off topic from discussing problems to actually talking about game balance so we should move thread.

27 pop really isn't that much. 9 scorps is fair seeing how ele has no low cost effective units.
4 trees is quite a bit.
5 trees?
2 trees is nothing at all really. I prefer to meet in the middle.
If three constitutes as a mass I suppose people always archer mass, sword mass, spear mass, crawler mass, bomb mass, miner mass.
So yeah I guess my definition is a bit different from yours but sure we'll go ahead and do how I originally planned on and ending this discussion about an empire that hardly anyone over here seems to understand.