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Chaos is it fair?

Started by: BuddyLucky2 | Replies: 173 | Views: 10,269 | Closed

blu3blitz
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Mar 23, 2013 6:58 AM #923130
Hey I remember the discussion on the zenith site that started all this, yo I think order is preddy balanced ya know, chaos is useless for those who can't use it to its fullest potency
uberman

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Mar 23, 2013 8:12 AM #923161
However Exxmorphing,


I think you miss the point; a single miner wall neutralizes completly the threat of bombers.
BuddyLucky2
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Mar 23, 2013 8:51 AM #923187
However uberman, wall are only good defense for miners(With the nerf) so if you want to cap the center you need to expose your archers to the bombers because the enemy(what chaos player does not have a Eclipsor?) will most likely have an eclipsor so since the walls can't protect the archers from bombs (Most likely bombers are defended from arrows) the Eclipsors of chaos are even more free to rule the skys with the threat of bombers :(
uberman

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Mar 23, 2013 12:58 PM #923335
Quote from BuddyLucky2
However uberman, wall are only good defense for miners(With the nerf) so if you want to cap the center you need to expose your archers to the bombers because the enemy(what chaos player does not have a Eclipsor?) will most likely have an eclipsor so since the walls can't protect the archers from bombs (Most likely bombers are defended from arrows) the Eclipsors of chaos are even more free to rule the skys with the threat of bombers :(


Yes, archers behind a wall are invulnerable to bombs and can pick them off at will. Handy for order, but hardly a balanced situation - if order can build a wall close to center his invulnerable archers can pick off what ever units chaos has - which is OP for order. Put a mage with elecrtic wall behind with them just to be extra sure of invulnerability while slaughtering.
So the nerf - they cant do that any more removes the situation which is completly OP for order.
Do you really think its unfair to stop the order ability to cheaply be invulerable while within striking distance of the tower, limitting it to 'only' near base?


Lets say you have some resourse spent on archers and spears, micro them so the spears protect the archers and you'll clear the sky of his wings - easily - because for equal resourses or population archers plus spears is greater than juggs and wings. Was before the archers were made even cheaper.

Sombody could say;
unbuffed swords > crawlers. Buffed with a cheap buff swords PWN crawlers. So 'lets make the swords even cheaper' is the reverse of moving towards balance. Equal resources or equal population or equal construction time, what ever way you measure, swords were stronger before the recent cost decrease. The crawlers should have been buffed to balance them, not the swords.

Somebody could say;
archers and spears greater than juggs and wings BASED ON equal resources or equal population (so there are equal numbers of tanks, but more archers than fliers) before the change. So decreasing the cost of archers was the reverse of moving towards equality.

Sombody could also say;
For the role of Tanking spears are better than Juggs, juggs being the more offensive unit, its reasonable that juggs are better in offence, and spears better in defence.
So moving to the point where they are equal in offence, but the spear is still better in defence is, again, the opposite of equalizing.

Or somebody could say;
marrow is the hard counter to E-giant - because with perfect micro two marrow can neutralize an E-giant for ever. As appropriate for a larger investemnt in population and resources by chaos, 2 marrow should be stroinger than one giant.
But then the reaper got a nerf. Now, despite being more expensive in both resources and population and requiring perfect micro, 2 marrow cant kill a single Egiant, despite being the chaos hard counter. Strange idea of balance. Again.
FFS.
300noob
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Mar 24, 2013 1:42 AM #923936
Quote from uberman
Yes, archers behind a wall are invulnerable to bombs and can pick them off at will. Handy for order, but hardly a balanced situation - if order can build a wall close to center his invulnerable archers can pick off what ever units chaos has - which is OP for order. Put a mage with elecrtic wall behind with them just to be extra sure of invulnerability while slaughtering.
So the nerf - they cant do that any more removes the situation which is completly OP for order.
Do you really think its unfair to stop the order ability to cheaply be invulerable while within striking distance of the tower, limitting it to 'only' near base?


Lets say you have some resourse spent on archers and spears, micro them so the spears protect the archers and you'll clear the sky of his wings - easily - because for equal resourses or population archers plus spears is greater than juggs and wings. Was before the archers were made even cheaper.

Sombody could say;
unbuffed swords > crawlers. Buffed with a cheap buff swords PWN crawlers. So 'lets make the swords even cheaper' is the reverse of moving towards balance. Equal resources or equal population or equal construction time, what ever way you measure, swords were stronger before the recent cost decrease. The crawlers should have been buffed to balance them, not the swords.

Somebody could say;
archers and spears greater than juggs and wings BASED ON equal resources or equal population (so there are equal numbers of tanks, but more archers than fliers) before the change. So decreasing the cost of archers was the reverse of moving towards equality.

Sombody could also say;
For the role of Tanking spears are better than Juggs, juggs being the more offensive unit, its reasonable that juggs are better in offence, and spears better in defence.
So moving to the point where they are equal in offence, but the spear is still better in defence is, again, the opposite of equalizing.

Or somebody could say;
marrow is the hard counter to E-giant - because with perfect micro two marrow can neutralize an E-giant for ever. As appropriate for a larger investemnt in population and resources by chaos, 2 marrow should be stroinger than one giant.
But then the reaper got a nerf. Now, despite being more expensive in both resources and population and requiring perfect micro, 2 marrow cant kill a single Egiant, despite being the chaos hard counter. Strange idea of balance. Again.
FFS.

then why don't u just freaking say make all chaos units free to be balance ....rofl
DragonFrost
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Mar 24, 2013 2:08 AM #923972
Giant mass if one of chaos's worst nightmares. WHAT TO DO?
jli

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Mar 24, 2013 2:12 AM #923977
Ok, but let's think about these offensive weapons that Chaos has:
bombers: AOE
medusa.petrify: single target
medusa.venum_flux: AOE, but must be VERY CLOSE TO medusa
marrow.reaper: single target
marrow.hell_fists: AOE, but VERY WEAK

Now let's look at the units:
Crawler: great in mobs, but easily blown up by magikill (seriously. it's so much fun to blow up crawlers.)
Bomber: AOE damage that makes it UBER OP when used well
Jugger: A solid infantry unit
Dead: A very slow ranged unit that can poison, but does low damage
Wingidon: Fast ranged unit, flying, but greater pop cost than archers
Giant: Good AOE tank, but can only hit three units and not ranged

So. I haven't countered chaos much, but just looking at these descriptions makes me think that without bombers, Chaos is screwed against the masses. They don't have such a great CC unit like the magikill, and every unit they have can be countered by mobs. Chaos spells are powerful, but usually not AOE.

What I'm saying is: sword + archer mass + a magikill to blow up dem bombers OR amazing dodging/kiting skills = Chaos doesn't really have much of a counter.
I would say that if anything, Chaos is UP.

Of course, I'm also a 1600, so you might want to get someone else's opinion.
DragonFrost
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Mar 24, 2013 2:14 AM #923981
Quote from jli
Ok, but let's think about these offensive weapons that Chaos has:
bombers: AOE
medusa.petrify: single target
medusa.venum_flux: AOE, but must be VERY CLOSE TO medusa
marrow.reaper: single target
marrow.hell_fists: AOE, but VERY WEAK

Now let's look at the units:
Crawler: great in mobs, but easily blown up by magikill (seriously. it's so much fun to blow up crawlers.)
Bomber: AOE damage that makes it UBER OP when used well
Jugger: A solid infantry unit
Dead: A very slow ranged unit that can poison, but does low damage
Wingidon: Fast ranged unit, flying, but greater pop cost than archers
Giant: Good AOE tank, but can only hit three units and not ranged

So. I haven't countered chaos much, but just looking at these descriptions makes me think that without bombers, Chaos is screwed against the masses. They don't have such a great CC unit like the magikill, and every unit they have can be countered by mobs. Chaos spells are powerful, but usually not AOE.

What I'm saying is: sword + archer mass + a magikill to blow up dem bombers OR amazing dodging/kiting skills = Chaos doesn't really have much of a counter.
I would say that if anything, Chaos is UP.

Of course, I'm also a 1600, so you might want to get someone else's opinion.


Blah. My strategy (which involves mass bombers) gets pwned by giant and meric mass. The bombers are too weak against giants.
KrayZStick
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Mar 24, 2013 2:15 AM #923983
Well, obv not doing enough, seeing how you let them mass giants in the first place. :p
DragonFrost
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Mar 24, 2013 2:20 AM #923992
The thing was, this guy was a master TURTLER...
KrayZStick
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Mar 24, 2013 2:24 AM #923997
:/ You let him turtle in the first place. I never face giant spammers anymore. But then again, my rating range isn't that far. :(
uberman

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Mar 24, 2013 6:02 AM #924137
Quote from 300noob
then why don't u just freaking say make all chaos units free to be balance ....rofl


Because I am attempting to present my opinion in the form of a reasonable case with supporting evidence based upon an interpretation of facts.
Try it some time.
BuddyLucky2
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Mar 24, 2013 8:05 AM #924188
Uberman i still feel like there are major factors "Hidden" in this conversation
Like the Factor of how Archers (About 6) 2 Speartons(2700G 100M) could fail against just 2 juggs and 2 flyers (Juggs run past spears and pick of the archers quickly with the support of the flyers and then once the so easily killed Archers are gone Speartons are screwed...and so is your game...

Unfortunatly, 1 thing could shut me up...but it would never happen...
Patch: Units now HAVE TO ATTACK FRONTLINE UNITS (Units in front of whole army) *Cough* chaos HAS TO DEAL WITH OUR TANKY SPEARTONS JUST NOT RUN FOR THE GROUND ARCHERS
If our speartons (and other order ground units) can't run after your support units (Eclipsors) then why do we order players have to deal with your Juggs, Bombs, Crawlers, etc that have the ABILITY to kill our support(Archers)?
Note: Don't just tell me that we have Albowtross...because even albas will not work well against eclipsors
WyzDM
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Mar 24, 2013 8:58 AM #924202
This settles it. I'm making a Order vs Chaos compilation, while taking any chaos user challenges. My Order is ready.
Bladed Fire
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Mar 24, 2013 9:03 AM #924204
Wow. Now it comes to the end.
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