LOL it works for me. btw i have like 10 albows to pwn them, also they can get to my statue, but before they destroy it they are all dead lol. Usually the opponent surrenders after XD

:) just leave chaos giants with 0 mana. Now, order giants on the other hand... >.>

He already edited it

Good. It'll be bad if merics cost 5 pop. They're not worth it

When ..have I said I supported the 750 mana for giants? Quote me please?

Personally I think the nerf should concentrate on building time and population cost.

Quote from Azxc

He means 5 giants with 2 magikill
or 6 giants with 1 magikill
or other components

I don't think it works at all.... if you want to use explosion and electric wall to the giants (short range spells) , your magikill have to walk out from your giant meat shield and your magikill will be thrown to stone death

Get your giants to move to the front of the magikills, it works.(Order only)
It's actually 2-5 Magikills +2-5 Giants,chose your own combination.

I don't know if this has been said, but how about flying archers, caste archers, and speartons?

But to the topic, There is NO counters for giants
First, they will build strong defend at their base with 3 castle archers and walls
you cannot touch it with shadowrath, and he will get pwned easily when he is stunned by the giant
infantry tactic is not working, their training time is too long
a spearton needs 20 sec, a giant needs 40 sec
But we all know that giants pwn 2 speartons

Infantry tactic seems to have the advantages at first, but it doesn't work in a long term fight as the giant masser can camp until he get enough giants such as TEN of them

As I mention, magikill is not as useful as we think

So... only giants can counter giants
So what is the meaning of this game?

Quote from MiamiBigAL

Unfortunately I think crawlers may be less of a counter than swordwraths. With micro, possibly more so but I can't say at the moment since I've never experimented with them.

The problem with crawlers is that they take up 1 population just like a swordwrath does. 12 crawlers to kill 1 giant means 12 population to defeat 7 population. The benefit of swordwraths is that 7 swordwraths (even without rage) can kill 1 giant. So for equal population, swordwraths come out on top (making them a counter in a swordwrath vs giant situation). However, I am thinking 7 crawlers will probably get annihilated by 1 giant. The advantage of the crawlers is that if you have good micromanagement, you can retreat the hurt crawlers and get them back into battle again 20-30 seconds later or so (and you don't need the population a meric uses for the healing). In that respect, with top micro the crawlers are potentially much more powerful, but again I have not tested.

However, in a realistic situation, you may have other units to deal with. Combinations using magikills, archers, fliers, etc, render crawlers much weaker. Likewise, deads, marrowkai and wingadons will also weaken the swordwrath potential as effective giant counters.

As I just added in post #14 of my crawler thread; http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48346-Question-about-crawlers-raised-by-test-playing&p=838095&viewfull=1#post838095 I did try it out, successfully in a game against a 1600 rated giant spammer (same rating as me).

However, I think your point about population is very important; in the situation I was in neither of us was maxed population initially and so I rushed out a quick max population army (super economy FTW) and attacked before he was maxed - had we both been at max, he would have had more giants and so it was situation specific victory (i.e. I attacked at max population before he had a comparable population, giving me the edge I needed to win).

Yes, as you suggest, my play testing suggests 7 crawlers are wiped by a giant, I think 10 have a chance of beating him but will more often all die (un-micro'd), 11 seems to be break even and 12 is a sound thrashing for the giant.

In my opinion, I would personally make it 3 hits to kill a crawler (instead of 2). This will increase crawler giant-survivability by 50%. I would probably also increase swordwrath giant-survivability to 4 hits to death (33% increase? I'm assuming it is currently 3 giant hits to kill a sword but I can't remember). This may mean it would take something like 5 swordwraths (un-microed) to kill a giant and 8 crawlers (un-microed) to kill a giant.

That really would help a lot, and would allow for hard counters to giants. Both hard counters would also have high risk vulnerabilities associated with them, which is a great strategic situation.

Would the change be best made by decreasing giant damage, or increasing HP of swords and crawlers?

RE: Magikill

I would only use magikills as a counter to a swordwrath//archer army. It is too easy to dodge electric wall for it to be useful against order giants. Against chaos, magikills are worthless because they get killed by marrowkai/medusa too easily.

:)
Hehe I have annoyed a few players with a well place petrify (mage-to-stone spell as I think of it) - excellent range on it too.

I don't think there is a way to defeat giant massers

Read my thread: http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48500-I-completely-lose-under-the-hand-of-GIANTS

I think prolonging the training time is a good way to nerf giants
One giant requires 40 seconds, seems very long right?
But one swordwrath 12 seconds, you will only have 3 swordwraths to fight a giant
But one spearton 15 seconds, you will only have 2 speartons to fight a giant

So.... comparatively, giants train VERY FAST!
Should be nerfed to ONE MINUTE

lol if they giant mass just giant mass!!!(that will never work)

Quote from Azxc

I don't think there is a way to defeat giant massers

Read my thread: http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48500-I-completely-lose-under-the-hand-of-GIANTS

It is a problem for us noobies, but as discussed in this and various 'how to deal with giant massers' threads the best way is to not let him get giants in the first place.

As a chaos player I have found crawlers can be effective (but not perfect due to population costs) when buffed with pack mentality and used in large numbers - with juggerknights to tank and wingdons for damage.
Even tho he's gonna get a better end game 80 population build, you need to make sure he doesnt get to his 80 population giant masser army.

Got PWN'd by 8 giants and a shitload of merics? Yes, me too.
But the thing I should have done, and would try to do next time; took him out before he got to that stage.

Build a fast mixed army, which if you have a good economy you'll do a lot faster than he can queue giants (because he's building one giant at a time, your building 2,3 or 4 units at a time) Max out population ASAP and as soon as you do ATTACK! as soon as you lose a unit, rebuild your multiple units and then each fight sets him back seriously as he has to build single units, your building multiple units - you'll take lots of losses, but your economy is functional (as your on the offensive, you dont let him suppress your economy) so your replacement units are more or less keeping up to losses.

He's got a shit load of giants and merics at the tower, with tower spawn, forcing you to garrison miners and beating you hard - what can you do to win?
Fuck all, to be honest you've been out played already and the guy is just finishing you off.
I'd try (but not expect to win by) attack the giants with my miners (tank and distraction) while running past his giants with my army and going straight for his statue.
If he's smart, and has 2 walls and castle archer and resilience, you die. If you're lucky or he's a noobie with insignificant defenses up, you may pinch a win from the jaws of defeat.

Bottom line; order giants are overpowered, until there is a balancing nerf, and there is no unit which counters them well. Stop him getting giants up by out playing him is the best bet; suppress his economy while pumping your own. If he gets a giant or two out, out play him and take it down.
For example a guy had a giant and a few speartons and a couple of merics, I had wings and juggs and was hitt-and-running against his miners from the tower.
I pulled back, he followed - just out of giant range, I turned and fought his spears - focussed on killing merics with wingdons. As gaint gets into range, withdraw - so his strongest unit is neutralized by its own weakness, its slow speed. By the time we got to the tower (big map) he had only a couple of speartons and giant. I stopped retreating, killed the spears and attacked the giant with a few wounded juggs and half a dozen wingdons. By the time he realized the giant was doomed, it was too late. If he stands and fights, he dies. If he flees he dies without even hurting me as he's too far from garrison to 'run' back.
Having put such a big early investment in a giant, and having lost it, game over. I win easily from there.
Giant massers are not unbeatable. Massed giants are pretty hard to beat - so for the final time in this post; stop him before he gets a mass of giants :)

This is the current most problematic problem for most of our players here, I suppose?
And I saw that Axzc said that with all giant massing there is no point to the game and a real war couldnt be done.
So, I suggest for a nerf. Suggest in what way you want the Giant to be nerfed:

Cost
Training time
Health
Speed
Attack Rate
Attack Damage
Upgrades
Movement Speed
Misc:
Cannot train more giant after 5 giants unless current is defeated

Pease put suggestions of Giant Nerf here

Quote from DragonFrost

:) just leave chaos giants with 0 mana. Now, order giants on the other hand... >.>

But order giants don't have AOE.
So, 1v1 = order giant win
6v6 = chaos giants win.

Also, chaos giants are able to hit sky units so, I think giants are balanced enough.