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is being gay wrong?

Started by: dabigE13 | Replies: 111 | Views: 5,154 | Closed

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Jan 3, 2013 11:52 PM #841321
Quote from Scooty
Alright, away from the "being gay is a sin" argument. I don't think humans as a species reserve the right to define gay as right or wrong, and most certainly not as unnatural. Homosexuality has been detected in 1,500 species. Homophobia has been detected in 1. Maybe we should stop and think about what's unnatural in this situation. Regardless, people will love who they love, and though some may be different than others, we shouldn't reprimand them for being who they are.


Brought that up 2 pages ago. xD
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Jan 4, 2013 12:03 AM #841334
Quote from Pin
Brought that up 2 pages ago. xD


Well you said "EVERY" but I suppose I should have caught up on the debate anyway. More than anything it was in hopes of getting the debate back on topic. On that note, carry on.
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Jan 4, 2013 1:17 AM #841401
"Is being gay wrong"
No

I is now on topic
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Jan 4, 2013 1:21 AM #841410
One of my friends from secondary school (roughly equivalent to high school, I think) recently came out as gay. He is an obnoxious and horribly immoral person. It has nothing to do with the fact that he's gay; he just happens to be a dick. The other gay guys I know are generally nice, although as Scarecrow pointed out there's no real reason I would know any individual to be gay or not.

Now let's do this by the book.

Starting from the beginning, ancient Mesopotamian ethics appear to value fulfilling your duty to society over hedonistic pleasures. One could interpret this as forbidding homosexuality because it tends not to result in childbirth, and having children is part of keeping any society going. On the other hand, drawing a distinction between being gay or straight is a relatively recent invention. It is entirely likely that the average Mesopotamian man would have been having bisexual sex all over the place, as the Greeks did, and so having gay sex and bearing children may not have been mutually exclusive activities. Gay sex certainly wasn't explicitly banned in and of itself. It is worth noting that I have read exactly one article on Mesopotamian society/ethics and am in no way an expert, but nevertheless I'm chalking this down as +1 for the good guys.

Ancient Egyptian society was incestuous and polygamous but considered masturbation a sin. Having not found a direct reference to homosexuality I'm going to move swiftly on.

Early Indian ethics appear to be a hybrid of utilitarianism and something like Aquinas' natural law, both of which we will cover in due course. The relevant emphasis is on progeny = good, infertility = bad, which I'm afraid is going to assign a -1 to anyone practising exclusive homosexuality. Of course, very few people follow that system today. Most modern Indian morality is Hindu-based, revolving around the concepts of karma and dharma. Karma is the principle that introducing evil into the world makes the world a worse place and will, on average, reduce your own quality of life. It is a much more sensible idea than the mystical crap you see on My Name is Earl, and gives a solid +1 to any activity which brings people happiness without hurting anyone. Dharma is more legalistic but does not mention homosexuality explicitly. It is generally considered to be a non-issue for Hindus. Having said that, the Karma Sutra states that homosexual sex "is to be engaged in and enjoyed for its own sake as one of the arts," which I think gives it +3.

I mentioned the Greeks somewhere up there. Aristotle's ethics were based on virtue theory - the idea that instead of focusing on individual actions you should focus on being a good person, and then the good actions will come naturally. Exhibit A here will be Bayard Rustin, who apparently is the guy that got Martin Luther King Jr to stop being violent. I think you'll have to be pretty damn homophobic to argue that gays tend to be less virtuous people then the rest of the population, leaving aside the homosexuality itself. This shows that homosexuality is not wrong, giving them a +1.

Let's skip ahead to St Thomas Aquinas, because this shit is taking ages. The argument goes something along the lines of "Things have an obvious purpose. God made things. Therefore God decided on the purpose of things. Therefore God wills that things fulfil their purposes. Therefore to subvert the purpose of things is to go against the will of God. Since God is good, God wills good, and anything which goes against God's will is therefore evil." Give him the benefit of the doubt on the denying-the-antecedent fallacy - I probably worded it badly. So, the purpose of the penis is procreating and therefore any use of the penis which could not lead to sex must be immoral. This is also the basis of the Catholic's ban on contraception. -1 from the homosexual camp. But, is the purpose of the penis so obviously procreation? Seems to be a pleasure organ to me. And I think someone in this thread already mentioned how good it feels to take it in the rear. Evidently there is some dual-purpose shit going on here. If, as I am led to believe, you can get pleasure from anal then it can only be because God wants you to stick things in there. +1 for divinely-sanctioned buttsecks.

I think the bisexuals are coming out on top at the moment.

Two or three centuries later we get a drive-by from Hobbes saying that we should do whatever the fuck the king is telling us to do. Since homosexuality is legal in all of our countries (please excuse me if you're late to the debate, Ugandans), this is +1 for team free-love.

Kant's view on ethics was that the moral law must be absolute, and so anything which would create a contradiction by being universalised could not be right. It cannot be right to lie, because if everyone lied all the time then truth would have no meaning. It cannot be right to kill, because everyone can't kill everyone - who would kill the last guy? Sodomy seems pretty universalisable to me. It is conceivable that all men could pair off and all women could pair off and there would finally be peace on earth. Might not be desirable, but that's got nothing to do with Kantian deontology. +1 to the gays. Oh, Kant also said you shouldn't use people as means to an end, so that means no gay sex just for attention seeking. You gotta want it. You want it bad, don't you baby?

My textbook tells me our next stop is egoism. That's when you do whatever you want to do to make yourself happy. Everyone making themselves happy leads to a happy society overall, in theory. It doesn't take much explanation. +1 for homosexuals, but a dodgy +1 for anyone who wants to go around beating the crap out of gay guys.

Skipping over the chapter on contemporary deontology (ie. if a guy turns out to have had aids, was it still right to fuck him?) brings me to W.D. Ross' prima facie duties. I would like to argue that, taking the existence of other gay people as given, you (as a gay man) have a duty to sex them up. Someone has to, otherwise they'll get all sexually frustrated, and it might as well be someone who will enjoy it. Think of it as helping a fellow human in need. Of course, your duty of manlove may have to be set aside from time to time if, for instance, your neighbour's house is on fire and their dog needs rescuing, but the mere fact that other duties might come first does not mean the gay sex was anything less than morally mandatory. +1

The issue of aids does need to be addressed. Does an act become less right if it happens to lead to STDs? By the standards of consequentialist ethics, yes, so there's a +/-1 hanging on whether or not gays are more at risk. Empirical evidence would suggest that yes they are, having a higher rate of some diseases than the rest of the population, however this is not an issue with the act itself - it is an issue with the way the act is performed. Presumably gay people are less worried about pregnancy than straight people, so they are naturally going to be less likely to use a condom. It happens - I know I've neglected condoms in the past when the girl had an implant. However, whether or not it is actually immoral to not use a condom is not the subject of this debate. In a world where condoms are easily obtainable there is nothing intrinsic about gay sex which makes it more or less risky than straight sex. No points awarded either way.

Can ethics be relative, like Jeff said earlier? Obviously we can't have ethics being relative from one person to the next, otherwise we couldn't arrest people for murder. Can it be relative within societies? I would like to argue that it cannot, on the grounds of slavery. In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century, the society known as "USA" banned slavery. If ethics are culturally relative then what grounds did they have for that action? By relativistic ethics, at every stage when slavery allowed it was morally acceptable. Therefore the US would have banned something which was, and always had been, perfectly moral. In more general terms, if we are to have any grounds to work towards cultural change we cannot have culturally relative ethics. Morality is absolute.

That leads me nicely into utilitarianism - whatever generates the greatest balance of pleasure over pain is the right course of action. If we want to prove that something is visible, we point out that we can see it. In the same way, the only proof there can be that something is desirable is that we desire it. J.S. Mill, 1750something bitches. What is right is what is desired is what makes people happy. Gay sex makes people happy and so it is right. +1 if I'm being unbiased but + all the numbers if I'm allowed to do it right. Crucially, consensual gay sex doesn't make anyone unhappy and therefore cannot be wrong. Sure, there are fanatics like the OP here, but what makes them unhappy is their decision to give a shit about what other people are doing behind closed doors (an actively immoral decision).



Summing up, we have 9 ethical systems up here supporting gay sex, with three bonus points for the karma sutra endorsement. For the homophobes we have two, one of which was an ethic based on helping society survive in early India, and the other was if we let Aquinas have his argument how he wanted it and we don't take it to its logical conclusion.

You might notice I ignored the Bible completely. That is because no person having a serious discussion takes words on a page for granted without an argument to back them up. Even Thomas Aquinas up there didn't base his arguments on the Bible, and he was a fucking saint.


tl;dr: Gay sex ftw.
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Jan 4, 2013 1:32 AM #841419
Quote from Zed
tl;dr: Gay sex ftw.


I only read the tl;dr, I agree with you.
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Jan 4, 2013 1:46 AM #841427
Quote from Zed
One of my friends from secondary school (roughly equivalent to high school, I think) recently came out as gay. He is an obnoxious and horribly immoral person. It has nothing to do with the fact that he's gay; he just happens to be a dick. The other gay guys I know are generally nice, although as Scarecrow pointed out there's no real reason I would know any individual to be gay or not.

Now let's do this by the book.

Starting from the beginning, ancient Mesopotamian ethics appear to value fulfilling your duty to society over hedonistic pleasures. One could interpret this as forbidding homosexuality because it tends not to result in childbirth, and having children is part of keeping any society going. On the other hand, drawing a distinction between being gay or straight is a relatively recent invention. It is entirely likely that the average Mesopotamian man would have been having bisexual sex all over the place, as the Greeks did, and so having gay sex and bearing children may not have been mutually exclusive activities. Gay sex certainly wasn't explicitly banned in and of itself. It is worth noting that I have read exactly one article on Mesopotamian society/ethics and am in no way an expert, but nevertheless I'm chalking this down as +1 for the good guys.

Ancient Egyptian society was incestuous and polygamous but considered masturbation a sin. Having not found a direct reference to homosexuality I'm going to move swiftly on.

Early Indian ethics appear to be a hybrid of utilitarianism and something like Aquinas' natural law, both of which we will cover in due course. The relevant emphasis is on progeny = good, infertility = bad, which I'm afraid is going to assign a -1 to anyone practising exclusive homosexuality. Of course, very few people follow that system today. Most modern Indian morality is Hindu-based, revolving around the concepts of karma and dharma. Karma is the principle that introducing evil into the world makes the world a worse place and will, on average, reduce your own quality of life. It is a much more sensible idea than the mystical crap you see on My Name is Earl, and gives a solid +1 to any activity which brings people happiness without hurting anyone. Dharma is more legalistic but does not mention homosexuality explicitly. It is generally considered to be a non-issue for Hindus. Having said that, the Karma Sutra states that homosexual sex "is to be engaged in and enjoyed for its own sake as one of the arts," which I think gives it +3.

I mentioned the Greeks somewhere up there. Aristotle's ethics were based on virtue theory - the idea that instead of focusing on individual actions you should focus on being a good person, and then the good actions will come naturally. Exhibit A here will be Bayard Rustin, who apparently is the guy that got Martin Luther King Jr to stop being violent. I think you'll have to be pretty damn homophobic to argue that gays tend to be less virtuous people then the rest of the population, leaving aside the homosexuality itself. This shows that homosexuality is not wrong, giving them a +1.

Let's skip ahead to St Thomas Aquinas, because this shit is taking ages. The argument goes something along the lines of "Things have an obvious purpose. God made things. Therefore God decided on the purpose of things. Therefore God wills that things fulfil their purposes. Therefore to subvert the purpose of things is to go against the will of God. Since God is good, God wills good, and anything which goes against God's will is therefore evil." Give him the benefit of the doubt on the denying-the-antecedent fallacy - I probably worded it badly. So, the purpose of the penis is procreating and therefore any use of the penis which could not lead to sex must be immoral. This is also the basis of the Catholic's ban on contraception. -1 from the homosexual camp. But, is the purpose of the penis so obviously procreation? Seems to be a pleasure organ to me. And I think someone in this thread already mentioned how good it feels to take it in the rear. Evidently there is some dual-purpose shit going on here. If, as I am led to believe, you can get pleasure from anal then it can only be because God wants you to stick things in there. +1 for divinely-sanctioned buttsecks.

I think the bisexuals are coming out on top at the moment.

Two or three centuries later we get a drive-by from Hobbes saying that we should do whatever the fuck the king is telling us to do. Since homosexuality is legal in all of our countries (please excuse me if you're late to the debate, Ugandans), this is +1 for team free-love.

Kant's view on ethics was that the moral law must be absolute, and so anything which would create a contradiction by being universalised could not be right. It cannot be right to lie, because if everyone lied all the time then truth would have no meaning. It cannot be right to kill, because everyone can't kill everyone - who would kill the last guy? Sodomy seems pretty universalisable to me. It is conceivable that all men could pair off and all women could pair off and there would finally be peace on earth. Might not be desirable, but that's got nothing to do with Kantian deontology. +1 to the gays. Oh, Kant also said you shouldn't use people as means to an end, so that means no gay sex just for attention seeking. You gotta want it. You want it bad, don't you baby?

My textbook tells me our next stop is egoism. That's when you do whatever you want to do to make yourself happy. Everyone making themselves happy leads to a happy society overall, in theory. It doesn't take much explanation. +1 for homosexuals, but a dodgy +1 for anyone who wants to go around beating the crap out of gay guys.

Skipping over the chapter on contemporary deontology (ie. if a guy turns out to have had aids, was it still right to fuck him?) brings me to W.D. Ross' prima facie duties. I would like to argue that, taking the existence of other gay people as given, you (as a gay man) have a duty to sex them up. Someone has to, otherwise they'll get all sexually frustrated, and it might as well be someone who will enjoy it. Think of it as helping a fellow human in need. Of course, your duty of manlove may have to be set aside from time to time if, for instance, your neighbour's house is on fire and their dog needs rescuing, but the mere fact that other duties might come first does not mean the gay sex was anything less than morally mandatory. +1

The issue of aids does need to be addressed. Does an act become less right if it happens to lead to STDs? By the standards of consequentialist ethics, yes, so there's a +/-1 hanging on whether or not gays are more at risk. Empirical evidence would suggest that yes they are, having a higher rate of some diseases than the rest of the population, however this is not an issue with the act itself - it is an issue with the way the act is performed. Presumably gay people are less worried about pregnancy than straight people, so they are naturally going to be less likely to use a condom. It happens - I know I've neglected condoms in the past when the girl had an implant. However, whether or not it is actually immoral to not use a condom is not the subject of this debate. In a world where condoms are easily obtainable there is nothing intrinsic about gay sex which makes it more or less risky than straight sex. No points awarded either way.

Can ethics be relative, like Jeff said earlier? Obviously we can't have ethics being relative from one person to the next, otherwise we couldn't arrest people for murder. Can it be relative within societies? I would like to argue that it cannot, on the grounds of slavery. In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century, the society known as "USA" banned slavery. If ethics are culturally relative then what grounds did they have for that action? By relativistic ethics, at every stage when slavery allowed it was morally acceptable. Therefore the US would have banned something which was, and always had been, perfectly moral. In more general terms, if we are to have any grounds to work towards cultural change we cannot have culturally relative ethics. Morality is absolute.

That leads me nicely into utilitarianism - whatever generates the greatest balance of pleasure over pain is the right course of action. If we want to prove that something is visible, we point out that we can see it. In the same way, the only proof there can be that something is desirable is that we desire it. J.S. Mill, 1750something bitches. What is right is what is desired is what makes people happy. Gay sex makes people happy and so it is right. +1 if I'm being unbiased but + all the numbers if I'm allowed to do it right. Crucially, consensual gay sex doesn't make anyone unhappy and therefore cannot be wrong. Sure, there are fanatics like the OP here, but what makes them unhappy is their decision to give a shit about what other people are doing behind closed doors (an actively immoral decision).



Summing up, we have 9 ethical systems up here supporting gay sex, with three bonus points for the karma sutra endorsement. For the homophobes we have two, one of which was an ethic based on helping society survive in early India, and the other was if we let Aquinas have his argument how he wanted it and we don't take it to its logical conclusion.

You might notice I ignored the Bible completely. That is because no person having a serious discussion takes words on a page for granted without an argument to back them up. Even Thomas Aquinas up there didn't base his arguments on the Bible, and he was a fucking saint.


tl;dr: Gay sex ftw.



My head hurts now... TnT
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Jan 4, 2013 1:54 AM #841432
For the record, any time you respond to a massive post like that, don't use the "reply with quote" button; just the normal reply button. It's a bit annoying to scroll through the entire thing again just to hear you say "My head hurts now... TnT"
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Jan 4, 2013 2:10 AM #841441
wow Zed you could seriously write a thesis on this... really good post, i was entertained and enlightened at the same time.
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Jan 4, 2013 2:10 AM #841442
But its fun -n-
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Jan 4, 2013 3:50 AM #841522
I do not mean to open up an argument on whether God is real or fake,but Eve was designed for Adam,because he was lonely.God gave us women to love,not men.
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Jan 4, 2013 4:04 AM #841535
Yes he did. But he also gave us plants, fruits, and specific animals to eat and yet we're now eating cats, dogs, squid, etc. But sexual orientation is such a big deal because...why? Most people who oppose homosexuality do it because of their religion. But why single out homosexuality? The bible says not to do a LOT of things that we do anyway. And we do them en mass, but this is the one that gets so much attention that the leader of a country is expected to address it, and could possibly win or lose based on his decision?
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Jan 4, 2013 5:56 AM #841639
You can't say that being gay is a defect!! In ANY way. Remember that the bible has passed for many corrupted hands through the years and the catholic church made several changes to it to make it fit in their thoughts and "values". From what I've read from MY version of the bible, there's NO part that mentions that. Being gay is NOT wrong or unacceptable, from what I've read, if you're lesbian or gay, you can't have kids or a family, wich is very important for god, he's maybe just sad because we'll not receive the blesses that are the result of having a family or raise a child. Obviously he'll treat everyone equally gay or not.
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Jan 4, 2013 6:12 AM #841654
Well, people earlier on this thread where saying "oh gay can be scientifically explained. And that its too much estrogen and shit and other things"

sorry for believing in the wrong shit.
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Jan 4, 2013 6:49 AM #841711
I believe basing your life after the bible is kinda straight forward and irrational ,
Because the bible promotes that you have to follow the 10 commandments and if you don't you're not allowed into heaven .
But everyone in this world has broken at least 1 of the ten commandments in their life if God expected you to follow every rule all your life then no one would get into heaven , Likewise being gay or bi should be forgiven by God as long as their still worshiping him as anyone else would .

The only problem I have is when I get into like middle school or high school and I see people swearing up and down that they're completely gay and they only date boys. No kissing,holding hands,passionately hugging their partner, that's someone being gay for the gossip or just to be gay they're not really gay. But once you announce you go that way it's hard to come back but how can a gay person do that?

And yes being gay can be a choice at times. I wouldn't wake up one morning and just be like, "Man....I think that brandon guy is kinda cute, let me talk to him" It's just not going to happen something has to push me to be gay or turn gay you can't be born gay.

That's like saying I was born loving the color green just cause of some extra hormones in my body. Or like saying if my dad and grandfather turned gay or is gay I will be born gay. It just doesn't work that way,I have no personal problems with gay people my friends often ask me why I text or call a gay person to just talk ,

1. They know all the bitches, I've been put on by like 3 gay dudes into like 6 relationships , it's so awesome.

2. They know what women like or they know what they say about such dude, I might wonder what my side-girl talking about
They help me with that.

3. They are often friendly and kind to the resentment I used to get ;

(I was basically born with 2nd degree burns all over my body and head and people used to call me "burned-boy" or "Freddy" as in Kruger and I feel for the homosexually no one should be tortured because of things they can't control or who they are)

Joked like them, for being different and they thought if they were around me they could get the burns as well, It wasn't fair for them to do it to me so I won't do it to nobody else. At least seriously.
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Jan 4, 2013 8:54 AM #841805
Quote from Scarecrow
ps. you guys are all mindless drones following a cult stemmed from a "holy book" that has been edited and re-edited to suit the needs of the present state of government

the bible is not even close to the teachings of Jesus


Being homosexual is not a natural norm(by that I mean uncommon but not impossible) and there fore I see it a as a wrong thing.I don't need the bible to know being gay is wrong,however,I notice most gay people aren't really faithful(I am not saying all of them aren't really faithful).
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