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I am/was rank 1. I know what I'm talking about. Read this. Giant Spamming.

Started by: xvdaemonicxv | Replies: 62 | Views: 3,216

uberman

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Jan 13, 2013 2:00 PM #850044
Quote from xvdaemonicxv
uberman my friend. Wyzdm and I have been testing and practicing for days upon days. I still have beat him everytime. Sadly you are right, a person who knows how to play order can and will beat a person who knows how to play choas.

BUT. Each time that we've practiced, Wyzdm has always made some careless mistake in some form or way and each time he has improved and goten closer to beating me. We are still testing. There is just currently no choas player that can beat me, including cc2 cause hes rusty as hell and hasn't even played with the new patch.

Btw: It's not sword archer that works ;) The crawlers can just harass your economy. I don't want to go into details but trust me, ive tested. sword archer doesnt work, not against a choas player with equal skill/control.


Thanks for not raging at me :) Obviously, I dont try to claim to be as good as either you or WysDM, and I read with interest and respect your wise words.

I would love for you to go into details in PM, if you dont want to do so in an open post.
I have been considering alternatives to the crawler start, which obviously means a bomber start to try wreck his eco early.
I havent put it into practice yet though - having a job and a family gets in the way of my gaming sometimes :)
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Jan 13, 2013 6:13 PM #850254
Daemon, your other thread disappeared. So i will tell you what i saw from the replay on that thread.
First, daemon gets 1 archer 1 sword. Other dude gets 1 archer 1 miner. Daemon kills the archer, kills a miner. Retreats to middle. Makes 5 miners and some swords. Miners just stand around. Daemon charges, kills all miners and swords of opponent, attacks statue. Enemy gets castle archer. Daemon's units die. Daemon builds 10 miners. Opponent surrenders....

Soomehow, I dont think that is the real battle XD
xvdaemonicxv

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Jan 13, 2013 7:31 PM #850294
I delted it cause I had to make some changes. It is up now though and no... that is not the real battle xD
DragonFrost
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Jan 13, 2013 7:56 PM #850298
That's what I thought XD
CRAZY JAY
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Jan 13, 2013 8:23 PM #850322
Great Post Deamonicxv I was getting to the point where I would have to write that out myself but I would say you nailed it.
Bladed Fire
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Jan 13, 2013 11:47 PM #850547
So, since CRAZY JAY said that, we should spam giants after we won them. JK
ShadowyWhisper
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Jan 14, 2013 12:16 AM #850572
Quote from xvdaemonicxv
Sorry for such an obnoxious title post. But I hope this has captured your attention and that you are now reading this.

Giant Spamming in regards to this new patch:

The only complaints I've been seeing are that there seems to be more giant spammers. I shall address this:

1. Before this patch each miner would bring in 150 gold each time, thus when two miners get back you get 300 gold. With the more miners u have the amount of gold u get is more(per trip). This is why before this patch you mightve seen spearton rushing more. 3 miners, 450 gold. Easy.

2. Refer to point one. But this also means that giant spamming was more common BEFORE this patch because you would get gold in bulk. Giant 1500 gold. 10 miners return.

3. The rate of income is the same as stated by Brock.

4. SO WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE THERES MORE GIANT SPAMMERS?

5.Here is why: Because you guys are getting pressured WAY FASTER than before in the early game. The rate at which you can make swordraths and archers have increased dramatically. People who take advantage of this probably pressure you into hiding in your base while they hold tower. To put it simply, you've already lost the game, and earlier too.

6. Refer to point 5. Usually when I do that, the other player gets castle archers and walls. If I continue to make smaller units, speartons, archidons, archers, swords, mage, etc. The splash damage taken from the castle archers is too much and would drag the game on indefinetly. So... I make giants. I giant spam for a quicker victory.

7. Note what I said in point 5. "You've already lost the game, and earlier too" You have lost to a giant spammer not because of the giants, but because you lost in the early stages of the game. BEFORE THERE WERE ANY GIANTS ON THE FIELD. THE EARLIER YOU TURTLE UP. THE EARLIER THE OPPONENT STARTS MAKING GIANTS TO BREAK YOUR CASTLE ARCHER+ARMY DEFENDING.

Giant spamming in general... and how to defeat it so you guys can all shut up and so I can have more of a challenge:

1. As stated above, it is not the the giant spamming that wins the game, it's the fact you allowed him to giant spam and you've allowed him to do that because you lost early game.

2. Something you guys should all notice about losing to a giant spammer. The fact you lost everything else before the giants. (This is probably 90% of the time)

  • You probably did not have the tower
  • You probably did not have the scouting information to see what your opponent was making
  • Your opponent knew exactly what you were doing and if he was in a safe enough position to spend 1500 gold on a giant and have to wait for it to finish completing and then move it all the way across the field
  • The point I am making above is that with the production of the first giant, the giant spammer is very vulnerable.


3. As stated above in point number 2. We can all agree making a giant is costly and takes a long time and its slow. If you are against making giants then that means you are able to make ANY OTHER UNIT faster AND MOVE THEM TO THE TOWER faster before the first giant arrives. That also means you shud be able to mass units faster.

4. In regards to point number 3, if you still don't have the tower, you're doing it wrong and that's why you're losing.

5. One giant on its own is very weak. I have not tested but it takes A LOT of rocks to kill a spearton. A few speartons or even a mass of swordraths+rage can easily take down that one giant your opponent will probably have out.

6. Your opponent will retreat and try and save the one giant and possibly wait for his second giant to finish (IF he's a giant spammer). His one giant is slow, chase him down. Also here's another possibilty. Harass his miners while the giant is trying to run back to base.

7. If you've done everything correctly so far, you have ghost/tower and your opponent is on the defensive. Position your army right outside of his base where your ranged units can easily take out the 2nd row of gold miners. This will slow down your opponents gold immensly. Slow down giant production, force him to make other units to defend. If he doesnt make other units, Keep pressuring him. 2-3giants does not do that much damage against a mass of speartons,swords,archers, whatever you decided to make.

8. If your opponent gets castle archer and has giants defending, well, heres the dilema, the only way to break a turtler is to giant spam yourself. Start sacrficing a few troops and get giants yourself. Remeber, you have ghost tower AND your opponent shudnt be able to mine from his 2nd row of gold. Get giants/clerics yourself.

*ofc you can also decide not to giant spam and only get 2-3 giants. But do you really wana risk facing w.e army he has defending + a constant hail of lv 3 castle archer? If you don't finish him off, you're army would be seriously injured due to castle archer+his defending army. He/She may then move his army out and kill your army or take tower back. And you've just lost the upper hand and the victory you couldve had if u just "giant spammed". Of course you can still win with 2-3 giants depending on your opponents skill level, but it would be risky. unesccarily risky.

9. Win the game.

10.Oh no! I resorted to giant spamming to win D; This breaks all my personal morals and ethics. I can't do this! I have wronged myself.

11.Correction: You won and fought back the tower with your superb skill of controling archidons/ninjas/clerics/swords/mage/speartons/etc. You forced your opponent into turtling at his base. You killed his gold production. You only spammed giants because your opponent is stubborn enough to not surrender even though he has obviously lost the game.

Sidenote in reference to point 11:

Please don't be that asshole where you get castle archer level 3 and miner walls and an army to try and defend in the hopes of you coming back and winning. You won't. So just surrender. As much fun as it is watching my army of giants crushing your pitiful last stand and you complaining of giant massing and how I have no skill, and calling me derogatory names. It gets kinda old when the past 20 players I defeated did the same thing.

That is all for now. NOW SHUT THE F*** UP ABOUT GIANT SPAMMING.

*same tactic can be used for choas... I think. Idk I don't play choas, you guys are on your own 8D.
*Also do not argue with me cause I am/was rank 1 so I know everything there is to know and everything you say that counters my argument is wrong. Jk, please feel free to ask any questions.

-Giant massing is simply a means to finish off an opponent which you have already beat. How you beat him in the first place is where the skill comes in.


This is EXACTLY correct. Win the early game, and you have already pretty much won. Sometimes the only course is to spam Giants. I don't quite understand people who think spamming Giants is so stupid when they have no way to defeat it. IF YOU CAN'T DEFEAT IT THAT MEANS IT IS THE BEST STRATEGY. USE IT.

I'm not saying it's the best strategy, but if you think it is, then use it. Guaranteed no resistance from your opponent, right? Wrong. Capture the middle, pressure his economy and army, and win. That's all I'm going to say.
Brotherhood

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Jan 14, 2013 3:12 AM #850745
If someone giant masses and I couldn't kill his economy in the beginning, I just spearton rush his statue :P
xvdaemonicxv

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Jan 14, 2013 3:44 AM #850769
haha yes ive lost 2 games like that, but i've learned to be able to tell when something is fishy ;P
WyzDM
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Jan 14, 2013 4:37 AM #850805
Quote from xvdaemonicxv
uberman my friend. Wyzdm and I have been testing and practicing for days upon days. I still have beat him everytime. Sadly you are right, a person who knows how to play order can and will beat a person who knows how to play choas.

BUT. Each time that we've practiced, Wyzdm has always made some careless mistake in some form or way and each time he has improved and goten closer to beating me. We are still testing. There is just currently no choas player that can beat me, including cc2 cause hes rusty as hell and hasn't even played with the new patch.

Btw: It's not sword archer that works ;) The crawlers can just harass your economy. I don't want to go into details but trust me, ive tested. sword archer doesnt work, not against a choas player with equal skill/control.


This is true. However, one nice improvement for a chaos start is the ability to go 2 miners 2 crawlers at the starting queue, instead of 1 and 3. By the time the two miners get back, your second crawler is just about to go up and you can add another to the queue, improving the start now from only 1 miner to 2, being able to mass more bombers/crawlers. EVEN STILL, order players can mass more swordwrath as well, and turning to bombers does not always succeed. A huge setback with Daemon and I is that many of our games have poor connection (we are on opposites of the freakin planet for goodness' sake), but even so he has very good spacing ability with swordwrath and is able to thoroughly pressure my base enough for me to cave into defeat. Any other chaos start can be countered by the same thing: more swordwrath. I'm still testing different theories, and Daemon is still the only player to give my chaos a really rough time about everytime (you rascal), but it's enough for me to realize that order can and will beat chaos if the start is played right.

On Topic: I'm surprised no one has mentioned chaos giants. While they deal damage to a spear area, they again can be EASILY countered. They lack projectiles, and the slow moving speed makes them susceptible to different approaches at eliminating them, even in masses. HOWEVER: an army of chaos giants will defeat an equal and sometimes greater army of order giants. So again, just use the above helpful tips and you should be on your way.



Quote from Brotherhood
If someone giant masses and I couldn't kill his economy in the beginning, I just spearton rush his statue :P

Quote from xvdaemonicxv
haha yes ive lost 2 games like that, but i've learned to be able to tell when something is fishy ;P


NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A FULL ON SPEARTON RUSH.
xvdaemonicxv

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Jan 14, 2013 4:52 AM #850819
Quote from WyzDM
A huge setback with Daemon and I is that many of our games have poor connection (we are on opposites of the freakin planet for goodness' sake), but even so he has very good spacing ability with swordwrath and is able to thoroughly pressure my base enough for me to cave into defeat. Any other chaos start can be countered by the same thing: more swordwrath. I'm still testing different theories, and Daemon is still the only player to give my chaos a really rough time about everytime (you rascal), but it's enough for me to realize that order can and will beat chaos if the start is played right.



Tbh, I might just be winning because of the connection issues.. x)
WyzDM
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Jan 14, 2013 5:03 AM #850824
Quote from xvdaemonicxv
Tbh, I might just be winning because of the connection issues.. x)




I doubt it, there have been closer games with other players, but I've managed only because I just have good-know how I guess. Predicting actions is one thing, preventing or countering is another. And I can't do that with you.

Yet.
uberman

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Jan 14, 2013 1:53 PM #851089
Quote from WyzDM
This is true. However, one nice improvement for a chaos start is the ability to go 2 miners 2 crawlers at the starting queue, instead of 1 and 3. By the time the two miners get back, your second crawler is just about to go up and you can add another to the queue, improving the start now from only 1 miner to 2, being able to mass more bombers/crawlers.

Yes, thats a fact.

EVEN STILL, order players can mass more swordwrath as well, and turning to bombers does not always succeed. A huge setback with Daemon and I is that many of our games have poor connection (we are on opposites of the freakin planet for goodness' sake), but even so he has very good spacing ability with swordwrath and is able to thoroughly pressure my base enough for me to cave into defeat. Any other chaos start can be countered by the same thing: more swordwrath. I'm still testing different theories, and Daemon is still the only player to give my chaos a really rough time about everytime (you rascal), but it's enough for me to realize that order can and will beat chaos if the start is played right.

Obviously, I am not at the level of having to face Daemon (or having to worry about trying to beat him, anyway). So, if you could explain to us lesser chaos players how best to deal with lesser order players, that would be great sharing and help improve the quality of play.
Specifically;
1. any tips for establishing control of the tower early on
2. any tips for dealing with his wall and castle archers once you force him to turtle
3. any tips for dealing with enslaved giants, once he has some up.

Typically, what often happens when I lose a game I should win is; I get control of the tower, but seem to take heavy losses doing hit-and-run to subdue his economy if he has castle archers/walls.
He gets a giant up, behind his wall and covered by castle archers, at which point I cant hit-and-run without losing at least 1 jugger each run - the giant stuns it from behind the wall, and I cant do much.
Then he can build enough giants to walk out and destroy me.

Would a good plan be; stop hit and run, build a marrowkai or two to reap his giant or unit, build a couple of chaos giants to kill the reaped unit.
I dont expect a move by move strategy, but a few guiding principles would be really helpful.


On Topic: I'm surprised no one has mentioned chaos giants. While they deal damage to a spear area, they again can be EASILY countered. They lack projectiles, and the slow moving speed makes them susceptible to different approaches at eliminating them, even in masses. HOWEVER: an army of chaos giants will defeat an equal and sometimes greater army of order giants. So again, just use the above helpful tips and you should be on your way.






NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A FULL ON SPEARTON RUSH.


Or full on Juggerknight rush :)
xvdaemonicxv

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Jan 14, 2013 2:36 PM #851115
The only I can say as a order player is that... REAPERS/MARROWKI FKS MY GIANT UP SO HARD. So yes. That is a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better plan. :) Wyzdm will answer specifics :)
uberman

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Jan 14, 2013 2:42 PM #851118
Quote from xvdaemonicxv
The only I can say as a order player is that... REAPERS/MARROWKI FKS MY GIANT UP SO HARD. So yes. That is a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better plan. :) Wyzdm will answer specifics :)


Thanks for the feedback :)
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