Quote from xomegax

Jeff, I am not saying that I disagree with what your stating but I think that although that these so called shorts that a big part of the community is releasing and are gaining fame from that, I believe that people are not making alot of lengthy things but it is helping improve there skills. So even though that they are not producing alot they have the skills to do so.

This is exactly the kind of delusional thinking I'm talking about. You cannot adequately measure someone's skill from a series of 2 second animations. They might work hard to perfect one or two movements or a sequence, but that result doesn't mean they are a good animator. I might maybe show you guys 5 of my 2 second pieces over a period of 4 months, and those all might be really good, when the truth is they're flukes or even attempts to start something that I gave up on because I wasn't ABLE to animate past a certain point. As I've been saying, working at animation in any form definitely helps improve your skill, I'm not really doubting that, my problem is that those are the only thing this community produces. The stickfigure community was founded on a desire to learn animation and get better at it, hobby or not. When we're in this endless cycle of self-satisfaction and low quality content, it really doesn't bode well for the future. Most of the people who genuinely want to get better don't even come here any more because it's so counter-productive. How often do you see the "pros" posting and participating now? Not at all, because they've moved to their own communities and circles where it's possible to get good feedback without the yes men trying to win your favor because they think you're good.

Quote from xomegax

Basically what I am saying is that most likely the animator that is producing 5 second shorts will reach the point where they will most likely make something worth showing and will have the skill to make it quality. So I feel that these shorts are helping to improve there skills so that they can make something of quality with the skills they have developed from all of the shorts they have produced.

This rarely happens. People like to think it does because they think ideally, but I've been around long enough to see this mindset try and fail more often than not. I've seen people pass through this community that you wont even know about, because they never did anything worth mentioning and never left any legacy. They stuck to making short content that never garnered anything more than immediate commendation. They thought it would improve their skills and they would eventually make that one killer animation, but never did. They felt comfortable and happy getting praise from other people doing the same thing and never moved out of that groove. It IS counter productive.

EDIT:

Do not use South Park as an example of animation. The animation on that show is shitty, and the people who animate it MIGHT have gone through training and schooling for animation, but they are not pro BECAUSE they work on a TV show.

@Arch-Angel
Well you're totally right, dude. This place must be full of little kids and I was wrong to argue with any of you in such a brash way. It might hurt some feelings especially since some of these kids are moderators, and that never ends well!

Alright sure, you have a hobby you're passionate about. I bet you walk around in real life thinking "yeah, I am an artist. People love my drawings. I'm good at this stuff." With that avatar you must have made at the daycare center for special needs children.

Yes, you're artists and animators; fresh, young animators.
Ready to truly express themselves in their bustling youth and flamboyant stickfights.

Thumbs glazing with drool. Like yours.

Quote from Edyrem

flamr, you seem somewhat butthurt that I put a realistic light on your hero terkoiz so you're calling into question my artistic skills. But the point behind what I'm saying is CAN YOU EVEN DRAW.

No matter how good or bad I am, the fact remains Terkoiz is indeed an amateur. I'm not insulting him, I'm stating a fact. What are you getting worked up about?
Does it really hurt you to consider the possibility that terkoiz is not an expert.

I know Terkoiz is not an expert and I can't draw (digitally). Why do you think I animate stick figures?
I was getting "worked up" about the fact that you are telling people to learn to draw and animate fullbody on a stick animating forum which you chose to sign up to.

@Jeff, what about all the frontpaged animations? They are produced by this community.

Why most people have this endless cycle in there mind and will most likely go through it countless times you can't assume every one is like this. I may be thinking positively but that is my mindset and I feel like this community could grow past the endless cycle it's been going through for years now. Also I know many animators have come and gone and only gone through this cycle but I believe people can improve and show that they can do something better than the common expectation set out by people like you.

Also who in this community do you consider to be an actual animator and has accomplished something?

Quote from Edyrem

@Arch-Angel
Well you're totally right, dude. This place must be full of little kids and I was wrong to argue with any of you in such a brash way. It might hurt some feelings especially since some of these kids are moderators, and that never ends well!

Alright sure, you have a hobby you're passionate about. I bet you walk around in real life thinking "yeah, I am an artist. People love my drawings. I'm good at this stuff." With that avatar you must have made at the daycare center for special needs children.

Yes, you're artists and animators; fresh, young animators.
Ready to truly express themselves in their bustling youth and flamboyant stickfights.

Thumbs glazing with drool. Like yours.

My avatar is a cut image from Great Destiny Man.
I've done a ton of artwork for friends who complimented my work, but realistically it wasn't as good as they were hyping it up to be because like I said, people tend to praise others more for being able to do what they themselves cannot.
You have no idea what you're talking about, and you're coming off as an idiot.

I know what your next post is going to say. You're just going to keep reiterating yourself because I'm not going to change your mind and you will not change mine or anyone elses. You are ridiculing the forum and the members and staff. You have six posts, none of which have been constructive, or contained any well thought out material whatsoever that could be remotely considered as beneficial. If you wish to stay then I suggest you change your mindset, think before you post something, and try using logic when constructing your posts. If you have no intention of being anything more than a pest then that's fine to. I have all of the tools I need to take care of worthless trash cluttering up this forum.

To be quite fair we don't need to clutter Jeff's thread up with our bickering, so consider this the end of the conversation. I'll be more than happy to respond to any private messages, but I advise you to end your conversation here as well. You've been warned.

Honestly Jeff, reading your posts it honestly sounds like you're talking about me lol. I had so much inspiration and ambition back when I used to animate with pivot and with flash for a while. It's like I lost the patience to actually animate for a long time because I get so focused on the ending that I don't want to do the tedious work to make the animation. So because of that I mainly stick with artwork and sketching, which is why I don't post a lot of my works, and when I do the process that you described earlier about feeling the same way as you would from the final products recognition sets in and I lose interest. I do agree that posting five seconds of animation isn't beneficial because realistically not much goes on in five seconds. I find it more beneficial if people do an array of movements focused around one test such as force and then post it that way criticism can be even more helpful.

Quote from xomegax

Why most people have this endless cycle in there mind and will most likely go through it countless times you can't assume every one is like this.

Yes I can, because history has never shown otherwise and I go in this based on what science and history tells me. The TED talk goes over this.

Quote from xomegax

I may be thinking positively but that is my mindset and I feel like this community could grow past the endless cycle it's been going through for years now.

I do too but it needs to address and acknowledge it's flaws first.

I see what you mean Jombo that those people have no experience in putting together a full length and there first attempt may be crappy, but how do you get better without practice? Your first attempt will obviously suck. You cant become amazing out of one try. But what I said is that people wont stay in the cycle Jeff mentioned forever and if they do that is there choice and I think they may not be animators in some opinions. But Jombo like your quote stated just jump in there after the countless test just jump in there and try. But assuming people will stay in the cycle is B.S. some animators actually want to amount to something in this community. While most dont show this theyre are the select few that do jump out of this cycle. But for the most part I think that you and Jeff are correct about this community.

I see what you mean Jombo and you are correct that full lengths are the best practice into becoming a better animator. I really have nothing left to say as I have made my statement and you have made yours, we have different view points.

So I am ending this conversation here.

I know I said I ended it but who cares?

By opting out do you mean that I am backing down on my opinion if so then no I still stand strong on my opinion that these short test are helping people improve and become a pretty decent animator. I think that you have your opinions and I have mine. Those short test can help people become something of an animator as they can learn the basics and apply them to a full length anim. As full lengths have been mention several times what do you consider a full length Jombo? An animation that has had a lot of effort put into it and is a decent length or just an animation with a plot and characters and such?

Quote from Jombo

What do you mean? Making full lengths is your practice.

This doesn't make any sense, not in the context of the argument Jeff is trying to make. You guys are talking about animators who work on their technical ability without ever trying to express an original, creative idea with them.

A "full length" is any animation that presents a creative idea in its entirety. You shouldn't be practicing anything while creating something like that, you should be applying skills you already have. A run loop or a particle test isn't a creative idea, it's a technical exercise, and there's nothing wrong with making short demos of specific techniques like those if you're unfamiliar with them. It's the failure to apply them to anything cohesive that should be faulted, not the process leading up to it.

Quote from Exilement

This doesn't make any sense, not in the context of the argument Jeff is trying to make. You guys are talking about animators who work on their technical ability without ever trying to express an original, creative idea with them.

A "full length" is any animation that presents a creative idea in its entirety. You shouldn't be practicing anything while creating something like that, you should be applying skills you already have. A run loop or a particle test isn't a creative idea, it's a technical exercise, and there's nothing wrong with making short demos of specific techniques like those if you're unfamiliar with them. It's the failure to apply them to anything cohesive that should be faulted, not the process leading up to it.

This is basically what Ive been trying to say.

Jombo even if you have no practice at making long anims theres nothing saying you wont have the ability to take the shorts you have made before and pull it out to something longer and significant. What you have been stating is that test ruins you unless its for a bigger project in the end. I find that ridiculous as either way you could take the FUNDAMENTALS from those shorts and test and throw them into the full length and make something of quality with those fundamentals.

jeff said his statements weren't directed toward everyone here, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up either way.

Exilement, who is your comment directed towards?

Quote from Jombo

Yes but with a technical exercise you're only focusing on one specific aspect of an animation. My point is that by only focusing on the specifics you're not getting the big picture. The technical work comes after you've tried making full animations and gotten a taste of all aspects of making a full length (including finishing).

Well you can master the aspects it could become something big, all of those test can accumulate into making you learn the aspect of almost anything animation wise. Also although it very rarely happens and some dont even want it there is CnC which a few indivisuals give good CnC that can give you what you need to work on improve on that and then apply what you have learned to your full lengths. All of those test can help you make the big picture happen.

This is so true! I wasted my whole time as an animator making short "test" animations, when I should have just started with a long project. I had the impression that making shorts would help me make a long project, but it really didn't.