Okay, I wanted to make another proposal. This is for upgrades to existing researches as well as more levels of research, adding more strategy to the game.

ORDER:

[INDENT=2]Sword Mastery - Increased the damage done by the swordwrath by .25 permanently. (Damage Upgrade, increases damage from 1 to 1.25)

[/INDENT]

[INDENT=2]Shadow Step - Teleports to a selected area (Very low target range) to escape enemies. (Blink) 150 Gold - 150 Mana - 60 Seconds (30 Seconds Usage Cooldown)
Flame Arrows II - Increases the damage done by the flame arrow ability by .5x(So in total it does 1.5 normal). 100 Gold - 150 Mana - 40 Seconds
[/INDENT]

[INDENT=2]Smite - Deals damage (2/3 of a swordwrath's health) to a selected unit. 50 Gold - 100 Mana - 20 Seconds (Target area of Stone Face - 30 mana Cost)

[/INDENT]

[INDENT=2]Fireball II - Increases the damage done by the fireball explosion by .25 (1.25 of normal damage). 50 Gold - 50 Mana - 15 Seconds
Fireball III - Increases the damage done by the fireball explosion by .25 (1.5 of normal damage). 50 Gold - 100 Mana - 20 Seconds
Electric Wall II - Increases the duration of the electric wall from 4.5 seconds to 8 seconds. 100 Gold - 150 Mana - 35 Seconds
Electric Wall III - Increases the damage of the electric wall by .5. 150 Gold - 200 Mana - 40 Seconds
Stun - Stuns an area (size of fireball) of units for a short time. 50 Gold - 100 Mana - 30 Seconds. Cost to use, 15 Mana - 15 second cooldown

[/INDENT]

[INDENT=2]Throwing Knife - Throws a knife at someone. Does the same damage as an arrow. 50 Gold - 50 Mana - 40 Seconds. Costs to use, 10 mana - 5 second cooldown
Shadow Mastery - Becomes completely invisible to his opponent's eye when cloaked.
150 Gold - 150 Mana - 50 Seconds.
[/INDENT]

CHAOS:

[INDENT=2]Predatory Edge II - Increases the movement speed and attack speed of crawlers even more(makes them attack .25 faster, as well as move a bit faster than the current speed). 100 Gold - 150 Mana - 60 Seconds
[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Metabolic Growth - Increases the health of the crawler by .25. 150 Gold - 150 Mana - 60 Seconds


[/INDENT]

[INDENT=2]Muscle Density - Increases the range that a dead can throw. 200 Gold - 150 Mana - 40 Seconds


[/INDENT]

[INDENT=2]Snake Frenzy - Medusa's hair(snakes) attack the unit in front of her doing the damage of a Swordwrath's health(It can instant kill a swordwrath). 50 Gold 50 Mana - 20 seconds. Cost to use, 0 Gold - 15 Mana - 13 seconds cooldown.


New Edits:[/INDENT]

[INDENT=2]Piercing Arrow - Does half the damage to ONE other unit, next to the target unit.[/INDENT]

The only ones I disagree with (only looking at Order) are the two Shinobi ones, because Shadowraths are already fairly strong (I think this was mentioned a long time ago) because they're fast, high health, high damage, poison, and shinobi, and now having range would be even moaaar.

And being invisible could let them walk right past the enemy to the statue with tons of shadowrath and destroy the statue, as well as letting them kill Magikill and Merics without any warning (it was bad enough already).

I do think that the other upgrades, especially for the archer and magikill, would help widen the gap between a great micro and a fair player, which is good.

Sounds good. Would make the game more challenging, and more options to choose from (either tech up units or mass no tech units)

I think you meant for smite to be a 30 mana cast, not gold. But these are purty cool ideas. I don't look at archdions at being stealthy enough for teleportation, perhaps the ninja with a throwing knife and cloak can make up for that.


I just need something as Order to fight these speedy cat demons. They're driving me nuts right now.

Don't make Medusa more powerful! Maybe make it so snake frenzy costs like 50 mana each kill and is toggleable.

Also, YAY! Bringing back stun for the magikill. Should be same range as electric wall though.

I kinda like the idea of all this and kinda don't at the same time. Here is my take on it.

First of all, magikill already cost a lot of mana with his current upgrades (the nature of him being a mage and all), but with all the extra cost for upgrading his other spells to make him more viable (I guess, since he is already decent), it makes for a very very expensive unit that is pretty weak (1 shot from shinobi, 1 shot from petrify, easily focused by rage swords, stuff like that). Maybe 1 extra upgrade for each spell with a little less effect. ! for electric wall that last 6 or so seconds and with a little increased dmg, but not as much as you said. Same with fireball. Also, don't know how I feel about the stun because with upgrading mages, you will actually want to make more then usual of them to compensate for the cost (4 to 6 magikill instead of the normal 1 or 2). And I don't know about you guys, but the control and micro in this game are not the most optimal and having many purely micro units with spells to do dmg have 1 more spell to use to be efficient is kinda a bad idea, I think.

This having more spells and making it much harder to micro goes for a few of the others as well and is my second point. Imagine a having 4-5 magikill with 4 spells each. 1 or 2 shadowrath that not have shinobi and a weak knife trow that you should be using, a blink on archers, a smite on the merics.... This is all without thinking about just moving your troops around the battlefield (microing back your archers, focusing with albows, putting giants or speartons in front, targeting opponent merics or mages with your own spreatons. This (of course put more variety in the game, but it also kinda forces every player to use all of these because if he don't, he is not suing his army at max efficiency and therefor not playing right. It would be like making miners but not get miner hustle... Would be a detriment.

Now if we look at the chaos upgrades, we can of cours see they have much less options to upgrade, at the current version of your idea Tec, but also that they are all passive abilities. So while Order is researching all his new abilities like a boss and trying his best to fight agaisnt Flash to micro his little units he upgraded like a boss, he will have LESS units then he should and be fighting a chaos player who does not need to do anything special to just crush his opponent even more easily then normally.

This is a good idea and all, but I honestly am not convinced. If changes like these are implemented, if forces players (who actually want to beat better players) to get all these, and this in turn makes the army smaller, much much harder to micro and puts a general extra strain on the unit. I'm not saying that 1 or 2 extra active spells would ruin it but currently, you put too many for me or even much better players I think would be comfortable with. Sh*t, I don't even think sc2 has as many active abilities. haha

My suggestion would be to add 1 or 2 active spells for both races and the rest of the upgrades you wold want to add, passives. It would let the game progress more, put more diversity, balance the fairness in extra micro baggage for both empires an in general gives players more path to tech and choices to makes during the game.

Dakeras

Wouldn't it be more, idk, better if you called it a shuriken throw instead of a knife throw?

I actually think that there should be "Flame" where it slowly drains an opponent's health when setting them on fire. But your formatting is great.

So, basically poison with a different animation?

Why are the crawler buffs so expensive?
The current buffs are so expensive that I think nobody (or almost nobody) uses them at all - and they are certainally too expensive to afford in the first 3 minutes of the game, when crawlers are used most. So adding more expensive buffs will therfore not be any advantage at all to the chaos players, while the swords already PWN crawlers, adding a permanent damage to swords (doubly so if its a cheaper buff) will make the survival against early sword rush even more difficult for chaos.

I am all for crawler buffs, but I think they need to be a lot cheaper, so that they can be realistically obtained early game when they are most needed. Possibly a cheaper, less effective version of the buffs should be available. We'd have level 1 (about half as effective as the current buffs, at about half the cost) level 2 (the current buffs) and level 3 your new buffs.

Look at this guy ^^

Thinking swords PWN crawlers. I don't know what game you've been playing but having a faster unit that regens life and that is cheaper vs a slow unit that cannot regen is much more favorable. Not to even mention the other cheap-ass unit that runs faster then everything else that kills swords too easy, the bomber.

Seriously dude. If that is really how you feel about th situation, then you need to wake up. You are not supposed to EVER EVER let your crawlers just sit there and die to swords. They are faster. Swords can only get 1 hit off or maybe maybe 2 if they get lucky with 1 rage.

Quote from Dakeras

Look at this guy ^^

Thinking swords PWN crawlers. I don't know what game you've been playing but having a faster unit that regens life and that is cheaper vs a slow unit that cannot regen is much more favorable. Not to even mention the other cheap-ass unit that runs faster then everything else that kills swords too easy, the bomber.

Seriously dude. If that is really how you feel about th situation, then you need to wake up. You are not supposed to EVER EVER let your crawlers just sit there and die to swords. They are faster. Swords can only get 1 hit off or maybe maybe 2 if they get lucky with 1 rage.

Riigghhtt...

So you have chaos, I assume? (if not I dismiss your point forthwith, being based on no actual experience)

One sword is not what I am speaking of. I am speaking of a group of several swords vs a group of several crawlers. This is most acute on a short map, where the build time of swords and crawlers being the same means the crawlers dont outnumber the swords in the early encounters of a sword-rush.

When you have, lets say 4 swords, along come the group of crawlers to hit and pull back to regenerate - but 4 swords symultaneously hit on one crawler which kills it outright. It cant regenerate from death!

So, one crawler is dead on contact and 1 sword took some hits form the crawlers, but didnt die yet as swords do more damage and have more health.
Crawlers either stay to fight (as none are hurt except the dead one, no need to run and regenerate) so all swords hit another crawler, and it dies in 4 symultaneous hits.

If the crawlers stay to fight, the swords rage and massacre the crawlers with superior hit rate and damage, even if one sword falls, 3 with rage - as long as they focus fire - means the regeneration is totally ineffective.

If the crawlers flee, the swords hit rage and chase them down - the third crawler will inevitably die at this stage, regardless of what the chaos player does.

So, yes, IMO, a group of swords PWNS a group of crawlers, unless there is a serious advantage of numbers to crawlers.
The fact that the crawler buffs are so very expensive means it is impossible to get them early game (which was my original point).

BTW the bomber is not the fastest unit in the game. Ninja are faster than bombers. Have you actually tested it? (Tec and I have) or your just asserting baseless opinion?

Quote from uberman

Riigghhtt...

So you have chaos, I assume? (if not I dismiss your point forthwith, being based on no actual experience)

One sword is not what I am speaking of. I am speaking of a group of several swords vs a group of several crawlers. This is most acute on a short map, where the build time of swords and crawlers being the same means the crawlers dont outnumber the swords in the early encounters of a sword-rush.

When you have, lets say 4 swords, along come the group of crawlers to hit and pull back to regenerate - but 4 swords symultaneously hit on one crawler which kills it outright. It cant regenerate from death!

So, one crawler is dead on contact and 1 sword took some hits form the crawlers, but didnt die yet as swords do more damage and have more health.
Crawlers either stay to fight (as none are hurt except the dead one, no need to run and regenerate) so all swords hit another crawler, and it dies in 4 symultaneous hits.

If the crawlers stay to fight, the swords rage and massacre the crawlers with superior hit rate and damage, even if one sword falls, 3 with rage - as long as they focus fire - means the regeneration is totally ineffective.

If the crawlers flee, the swords hit rage and chase them down - the third crawler will inevitably die at this stage, regardless of what the chaos player does.

So, yes, IMO, a group of swords PWNS a group of crawlers, unless there is a serious advantage of numbers to crawlers.
The fact that the crawler buffs are so very expensive means it is impossible to get them early game (which was my original point).

BTW the bomber is not the fastest unit in the game. Ninja are faster than bombers. Have you actually tested it? (Tec and I have) or your just asserting baseless opinion?

Crawlers with upgrades are as fast as ninjas.

15 fully upgraded crawlers die to 10 raging swords.

but crawlers are not meant to engage Rage Swords. Their purpose, mostly early game, is gain control of center and maybe harass the miners. Engaging 15 pure crawlers vs swords or pretty much anything except other crawlers or pure archers is kinda crazy. I don't think you should make 15 of them without realizing the need to make bombers or the need to switch to air. Their job is not to win engagements, their job is to control the battlefield early on to give time to get your eco rolling and better units out.

I dont have Chaos, so my opinion may be invalid.

Order can get rage early game, about 1 min and 5 sec or so. The miners will be set to pray at start to gain 50 mana vey quickly. Then just rage. On Chaos side, they can just to train more cats or bombs. To make things worst, they are in the same queue. And, swords are stronger than cats. Youll need good micro to win 3 cats vs 3 swords.