Ok, consider this.

Anyone who understand basic chemistry understands that when you combine the right amount of sodium, and the right amount of chlorine, you get salt 100% of the time. There is no fluctuation, and there is no ifs, as long as you know every variable of the equation, you will always know the output. Think about the human brain, all it really is, is a hodge podge of chemicals, interacting with each other, those chemicals can be broken down into atoms. Imagine for a minute that your a supreme being, and can understand not only anything, but everything. Imagine one human brain, and seeing every atom inside of it, now imagine that humans body, now imagine every atom in that humans community, for the environment, to the people. now imagine every atom in the universe. You , as a supreme being, see how every atom will react with ever other atom. Ok, if you can accept that logic, then you can accept that if their is a supreme being, that he can see the future, because he will see how every atom will react with every other atom untill the end of time. Lets back track. By re-tracing your steps on an atomic level, think about the moment you(the supreme being your imagining you are) created everything. Be it big bang, or creation this being would have been able to understand every action from the beginning. Accepting all that, you must also accept that This being, had to make the initial push that set all the actions that followed (A.E. Our existence [a huge chain reaction from the beginning]) into motion.

Now, to get to my point, if this supreme being is perfect, like he would have to be to have create us, and understand all these concepts, then the position we're in today, has to be exactly as he planned for it to be in the begging. To quote Paul Davies, from his book 'The Mind of God' "Our universe is like a book, if your at the begging, middle or end, the story is already finished. your just only as far as you are. Nothing any of the characters will do will ever change the outcome of the book". Basically, what i'm saying is, that when we pray to "god", we're asking him to change the plan that he had laid out for us in the beginning. If you believe "god" to be perfect, then his plan, for us and everything that effects us, is already going as he planned it to, and to pray for him to change it, would be praying for him to change his perfection.

Aerokes

p.s. you guys should check out my blog Aerokes.Blogspot.com

I understand what you're getting at, and I enjoyed reading your thoughts, but when it comes to religious people none of this stuff matters.
Even if the existence of a God is somehow proven to be completely false by science, religious people with still be religious.
No argument anyone can make will change that.

Quote from Nodbarnacle

I understand what you're getting at, and I enjoyed reading your thoughts, but when it comes to religious people none of this stuff matters.
Even if the existence of a God is somehow proven to be completely false by science, religious people with still be religious.
No argument anyone can make will change that.

very very true. I was having a debate with a religious friend when my post just kinda popped into my mind, and i subconsciously worked out the details. i told my friend this, and after he agreed to every word, he said "I still believe in god, and that he listens to my prayer" ... all i can say is... denial.

Eh, it's not about people being in denial or anything, it's just that some people need a God.
Religious debates are pointless, I'm not smarter or dumber for not believing in a God, and neither is anyone else who believes in a God.
I say, let people have religion, even if there are many things about it that I believe are very wrong.

yeah, i understand the spirituality of it, as most human beings need some kind of support to have a stable existence, but some things with religion today are so out of control...

Nice arguments, but they make no sence to what you're trying to tell us, I think.

Quote from killeq

Nice arguments, but they make no sence to what you're trying to tell us, I think.

what part don't you understand? I'll try to state it more clearly.

Yay, I referred a new member that isn't a jackass! I've already heard this from him a few times though, so I guess I'll leave my post at this.

Quote from aerokes

yeah, i understand the spirituality of it, as most human beings need some kind of support to have a stable existence, but some things with religion today are so out of control...

Specifics ?

You seem like you are taking a determinist stance here, but the concept of free will in the bible changes that, the christian god has a general outlook on what he wants you to follow, that is the plan he has. However you can choose to stray from that by your own will, he may want you to do something but ultimately its your choice to disobey him or whatnot.

Also, you seem to think prayer can only be used as asking for something, when in the bible its explained to be conversation with god. Prayer could simply be thinking him for something.

Quote from Dragon077

Specifics ?

I'm assuming you mean the specifics of the church today, and not of people needing spirituality.

Well, how many churches in today's society do you know that are full of hypocrisy, popularity, and people pointing fingers at other churches/religions/groups, instead of taking the blame as society as a whole. 90% of the church's and youth groups around my city, point finger's to other churches and youth groups around the city. These groups also seem to have a hierarchy of people they follow in the actions, prayer and devotion. The problem is, these leaders are no more serious about religion than a football fan on Sunday, they just act enthused for the popularity of it, and the sense of power they get from having a 'following'. Its pathetic that this behavior is not only in teenagers, but adults as well, saying our church is more serious then yours, when in all reality they both have tremendous flaws, that they both fail to admit.

Quote from Jeremy

You seem like you are taking a determinist stance here, but the concept of free will in the bible changes that, the christian god has a general outlook on what he wants you to follow, that is the plan he has. However you can choose to stray from that by your own will, he may want you to do something but ultimately its your choice to disobey him or whatnot.

Also, you seem to think prayer can only be used as asking for something, when in the bible its explained to be conversation with god. Prayer could simply be thinking him for something.

The way i mean you to interpret my view, is that free will, in all technicality, doesn't really exist, its just an illusion we create. Sure its our brains making our choice's, but it was the chain of events in the beginning that got us to were we are, and keeps us on the path we are on.


As for conversations with god, Strictly in my opinion, if there is a supreme being, he exists outside of time itself, and our universe, time, and space, is, for example, inside one box, and this supreme beings, exists outside this box, and his only intentions for it are to observe what he created, already knowing the outcome.

A writer goes through many drafts for the book before it is finished and published. He can change events and characters while writing the book for example because his editor asks him to. Maybe this supreme being just finished his first draft. He has the general outline for the story, but is still open for ideas.

Quote from alive

A writer goes through many drafts for the book before it is finished and published. He can change events and characters while writing the book for example because his editor asks him to. Maybe this supreme being just finished his first draft. He has the general outline for the story, but is still open for ideas.

lol.. i agree with you, but your missing the point. if god is "perfect"... perfect being the keyword. he wouldn't have a draft, or a trail, everything would be the way he wanted it the first time.

Well, perfect beings should also be able to change their mind. How can you decide what is better of basketball and football? What is the more perfect? In my opinion, they are equally good, some people enjoy playing basketball more, same goes for football. Maybe the supreme being suddenly changed his mind. One day he just decided that the story should be about football in stead of basketball. It doesn't make neither him nor the story less perfect. Just different.

Quote from alive

Well, perfect beings should also be able to change their mind. How can you decide what is better of basketball and football? What is the more perfect? In my opinion, they are equally good, some people enjoy playing basketball more, same goes for football. Maybe the supreme being suddenly changed his mind. One day he just decided that the story should be about football in stead of basketball. It doesn't make neither him nor the story less perfect. Just different.

It's not so much the essential fact that one is perfect, and one isn't, its that the being himself is perfect, so his choice, is always going to be perfect, if it was originally perfect, then to change in mind in the future, would mean that he was wrong in the first place. you can't say his mood change, because if he's an omnipotent being, he doesn't have moods, or feel for that matter.

From dictionary.com - perfect - excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement.

The key part of that is "Beyond practical or theoretical improvement."