uhh.. i have free will.

Free will is scientifically impossible, as far as I can see. It simply makes no sense. It seems to be the result of our being conscious of our cognitive abilities , which are complex to the point of seeming to be "free".

Also some of you don't seem to be understanding the discussion. If there is no free will it isn't actually applicable to your daily life, its just theory were talking about here, and what actually is, not bringing in all this extra garbage about people being unresponsible. "oh hur you don't believe in god cuz you dont want to go to church on sunday." same thing.

No, we don't.

Anything that will happen is going to happen and always would of happened and it if changes that would of happened anyway you cant ****ing change destiny or none of that shit because the world is gay.

Destiny is lame.

Time isn't fixed.

I know what you're thinking Ash, but Jeremy has a point.

Tell me, are we held responsible for our actions, decisions?

I assume the answer is yes. Because as Jeremy said, one could go on a killing rage and then blame it all on their childhood. My mom is responsible for killing!
What you're talking about is a world where everything is predictable.
If we are responsible for our actions, then there must have been free will included. There is no free will without responsibility and vice versa.

On the other hand, you're right. We're all limited by many factors and thus predictable. First we're limited by our childhood, the experiences we had, the society we live in, the whole abilities of the human race and all the physical laws (laws of gravity, etc.)

Now, I'll tell you what we really are. One can only be free if they realise and know their limits. It's the "power" of mind humans have. But it's up to the individual if he knows that or not.

That's the thing though; a guy gets blamed for his killing spree when it was supposedly his free choice. But a VERY long complex web of experiences and impressions were throw into the pot and this is the output.

I think, if you had like a SUPERULTRAMEGA computer, then it might be possible to calculate what people are going to do next, as long as new data is constant.

I think the web is so complicated, and there are almost an uncountable number of influences, that people say it is free will. But if you had an almost infinite amount of maths power you could narrow it down to what their next move will be.

Holding people to be responsible is a practical agreement between all humans, it works for the good of all people. It doesn't need to be objectively true that we should hold people accountable for their actions, it's simply required for a society or culture to function and exist.

Also, that person is their experiences, and that's what your putting in jail. They aren't a separate conscience from what they are.

Bonk, yeah Ive imagined a computer or something else that could predict everything before, just like a computer can predict the weather or some other little chunk of everything. Of course if it really could predict everything, and there were people seeing the results, then I assume it would just never finish computing what was going to happen, since it would change based on what they saw, and then they'd change what they do then it would realize it an infinite number of times.

The heights you'll reach the
depths you'll delve to
depends on the propulsion
system that propels you
methods that compel you
messages they sell you
punishments they give you
for doing what they tell you
but we've got passion
they've got prisons
you've got the freedom to
make a decision
will you abandon
all your addictions
take your stand and
live your convictions.

True free will= Disobeying.

True free will doesn't exist.

The network of influences is so large that it looks like free will to anything but a superultramega computer.

Quote from Mantha

I know what you're thinking Ash, but Jeremy has a point.

Tell me, are we held responsible for our actions, decisions?

I assume the answer is yes. Because as Jeremy said, one could go on a killing rage and then blame it all on their childhood. My mom is responsible for killing!
What you're talking about is a world where everything is predictable.
If we are responsible for our actions, then there must have been free will included. There is no free will without responsibility and vice versa.

On the other hand, you're right. We're all limited by many factors and thus predictable. First we're limited by our childhood, the experiences we had, the society we live in, the whole abilities of the human race and all the physical laws (laws of gravity, etc.)

Now, I'll tell you what we really are. One can only be free if they realise and know their limits. It's the "power" of mind humans have. But it's up to the individual if he knows that or not.

What about pre-set actions, you cannot defy the machine, and therefor everything you do, will always be pre-predicted in the past, and thefor the accusations against you are the exact same thing, and yes, you will be held responsible for these actions.

The machine is a unmerciful unloving faggot who loves to make us cry.

I got through a few posts before realizing that almost everyone was completely ignorant on the subject. I love how this forum has such a large number or people willing to post their opinions in the debate section, but it's also slightly disturbing to see people's thoughts on such complex ideas as Scientific Determinism. Here's a post I replied to on the subject at another forum. Sa'alyg = OGrilla

http://www.almostsmart.com/forums/showpost.php?p=278160&postcount=7

EDIT:

Bonk and Bubba Jones deserve an apology from me. I hadn't read your posts yet, but after typing the previous up, I did check the rest of the thread and it appears as though you both came to the exact same conclusion I did. Cheers.

Quote from OGrilla2

I got through a few posts before realizing that almost everyone was completely ignorant on the subject. I love how this forum has such a large number or people willing to post their opinions in the debate section, but it's also slightly disturbing to see people's thoughts on such complex ideas as Scientific Determinism. Here's a post I replied to on the subject at another forum. Sa'alyg = OGrilla

http://www.almostsmart.com/forums/showpost.php?p=278160&postcount=7

Am I one of the ignorant ones?

Nope, we agree on this topic. Cheers to you, too.

Thanks , <3

I'd like to direct your attention to a post I made a couple days ago on the subject.

Quote from The Pirate

If you look at our brains and our lives on a purely chemical level, then yes, free will in effect doesn't exist. The fact that you can think about doing something, then change your mind doesn't disprove his argument.

If a character in a novel begins doing something, then changes their mind and goes about doing something else, that isn't free will. The character was MEANT to change his mind, it was already written in the story that he would. He could change his mind a hundred times over the course of the book, but that doesn't change the fact that the book was leading to the same inevitable conclusion the entire time.

Now imagine that you are looking at life through the eyes of that character. You would probably figure that those choices you made were evidence that you in fact have free will because you have no awareness of the future.

It's an abstract thought but it does make perfect sense. Of course, we don't like to think of ourselves as masses of chemicals going through some enormous, complicated, but fixed series of reactions. And as far as any of us are concerned, we do have free will, simply because there is no possible way we could ever tell the difference between an illusion of free will, and true free will anyways.

It's actually an interesting thought experiment.

Even if true free will does not exist, that doesn't mean we are free from any accountability (to those who are using that as the basis for their arguments).

Like I said in the final paragraph of the above post, as far as we are concerned, we DO have free will because we have no possible way of knowing the difference between free will and an illusion of free will. For all we know, the entire universe we live in is nothing but a massive computer simulation like in The Matrix, but it wouldn't really matter anyways. It feels "real" enough to us, so as far as any of us are concerned this is in fact reality.

What I'm saying is that even if we don't have "true" free will, we are all subject to the same illusion, so we define that illusion as being free will. There is no freedom from responsibility for our actions. I would still consider someone a nutcase if they tried to justify murder by saying there is no such thing as free will and therefore he was inescapably destined to commit the crime.

Like I said before, it is merely a thought experiment. Whether or not free will is an illusion does not change anything. If EVERYONE sees the same illusion, the illusion for all intents and purposes, is reality.