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Free Will: Is it really there, or is it just an illusion?

Started by: Ash | Replies: 104 | Views: 4,288

DimSumMan

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Jun 28, 2008 6:42 PM #170776
Whether fate exists or not does not matter, except by affecting the thoughts of some really interested people.

If fate was true, then what we do is already determined. So what? If we did not focus on fate and did not try to find what our fate was, then whatever the future is, will be our future whether fate existed or not.

And with the people that attempt to change their fate, if their fate was EVER revealed to them truthfully, then it was already their fate to attempt to change their fate isn't it?
Hamstermannen

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Jun 29, 2008 8:43 PM #171692
DimSumMan has a point. It is because of the illusion of free will that the existance of fate doesn´t really matter.

It hit me, in most stories about destiny, fate isn´t really of the kind that we are discussing here. For example, in "King Oidipus", the protagonist gets to know his own destiny. He knows it, but no matter how much he tries he cannot change it. In fact, his actions caused the events that led to the fulfilling of his fate. It is a different kind of destiny, but the outcome is the same. The way it happens doesn´t matter, because the results doesn´t differ. Eh... It is a very fine line, but let´s say it like this: No matter you know your destiny or not, a final destiny is always fulfilled: be it the prophesized destiny or an outer destiny.

A videotape never changes.
smxqrth
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Jun 29, 2008 9:08 PM #171715
Well the theory we have here says that you were going to attempt to change it anyway.
Hackor Pickel
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Jun 30, 2008 3:33 PM #172558
i'm confused....
Dinomut
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Jun 30, 2008 7:45 PM #172724
it's impossible for you to change the future (AKA your fate) without creating an unstable time loop. If you see your fate and never fulfill it, then what did you see? If it never happened, then how was it shown to you? Without the existence of a 5th dimension, this would cause spacetime to collapse in on itself into a supermassive black hole that destroys the universe.
Hamstermannen

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Jul 1, 2008 10:27 AM #173466
Speaking of time holes, there´s an article published in "Science Illustrated"* that speaks of another view of fate and time. It says that for every decision one makes, or any time you change your surroundings, a number of alternative universes is created. All these universes reflects what could have happened and what did happen. If you would overview all these universes, you would be able to see the possible results of different peoples actions - in the present and the future alike. If you would try to change your current situation by traveling back in time and change something back then, you simply choose another path. Your original universe stays the same, and your new one is not changed either.

This theory contradicts the one I spoke of earlier (the all-atoms-bounce-around-in-a-special-way-theory), because if everything was predestined, no alternative universes would exist (except in theory of course). Instead, it encourages free will as you are free to chose your own path within the many - but not infinite - possible universes.

As I see it, both of these theories have their pros and cons. The first one makes more sense to me, but on the other hand if time traveling should be made possible, nothing of it would make sense anymore. The second one easily allows for time travel (more like alternative-universe-travel though), a question that many a bright scientists have rubbed their brows over. Also, I´m not very secure with the branches of science that these theories are based upon. No one has ever said that the truth of everything is simple enough for anyone to understand it :\

* In pure swedish "Illustrerad Vetenskap". Dunno the english title.
Dinomut
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Jul 1, 2008 5:13 PM #173636
Quote from Hamstermannen
Speaking of time holes, there´s an article published in "Science Illustrated"* that speaks of another view of fate and time. It says that for every decision one makes, or any time you change your surroundings, a number of alternative universes is created. All these universes reflects what could have happened and what did happen. If you would overview all these universes, you would be able to see the possible results of different peoples actions - in the present and the future alike. If you would try to change your current situation by traveling back in time and change something back then, you simply choose another path. Your original universe stays the same, and your new one is not changed either.

This theory contradicts the one I spoke of earlier (the all-atoms-bounce-around-in-a-special-way-theory), because if everything was predestined, no alternative universes would exist (except in theory of course). Instead, it encourages free will as you are free to chose your own path within the many - but not infinite - possible universes.

As I see it, both of these theories have their pros and cons. The first one makes more sense to me, but on the other hand if time traveling should be made possible, nothing of it would make sense anymore. The second one easily allows for time travel (more like alternative-universe-travel though), a question that many a bright scientists have rubbed their brows over. Also, I´m not very secure with the branches of science that these theories are based upon. No one has ever said that the truth of everything is simple enough for anyone to understand it :\

* In pure swedish "Illustrerad Vetenskap". Dunno the english title.

its called the 5th dimension
Bubba Jones
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Jul 2, 2008 12:42 AM #174055
Shut up drocksta.


and that "alternate universe" theory doesn't seem to have the slightest bit of evidence.
Hamstermannen

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Jul 2, 2008 3:43 PM #174572
Well, it´s just speculation so far, so I can´t give you any evidence for it. We have no evidence for a fifth dimension either.
treeoflife

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Jul 2, 2008 9:23 PM #174886
I Disagree. If There Are For Example Conjoined Twins, They Both Learn Exactly The Same Things But Grow Into Different Personalities, They Make Decisions On Their Own.
Bubba Jones
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Jul 3, 2008 2:52 AM #175115
Quote from treeoflife
I Disagree. If There Are For Example Conjoined Twins, They Both Learn Exactly The Same Things But Grow Into Different Personalities, They Make Decisions On Their Own.




That's got to be the worst argument for free will in this whole thread.
Carteana
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Jul 3, 2008 5:56 AM #175246
True free will is for people with no conscience, people with no moral guilt.
Zurbz

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Jul 5, 2008 8:01 AM #177979
Pretty much making this thread has defied your theory. Why would anything influence your thoughts on this. You simply became aware on your own. Now if everything were on a track, then the course would not allow you to become self aware, as that risks a chance of breaking the track. Although, the course could quite possibly bound you to become self-aware....well..... I guess you'll never be able to tell, since if you come to a true conclusion, your already bound to right now. And the thoughts that you think have influenced your actions, were already set and supposed to happen.
Bricked
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Jul 5, 2008 11:34 AM #178127
Here's my two cents.

While we can nitpick and say "Oh but this atom was here and we learned it meant this thing so we did this" but **** that. It doesn't mean shit to me. As much as I would like to be accurate and say "there is no free will we are guided by instinct and surroundings" I don't want to. Maybe this makes me a sissy, less of a man or something. I don't care. I would rather believe that we can make our own decisions as an act of free will than to be some kind of accuracy whore. I would rather believe in what it looks like than "this atom told us to do this, you didn't make a decision at all".
Ash
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Jul 6, 2008 1:26 AM #178730
Quote from Bricked
Here's my two cents.

While we can nitpick and say "Oh but this atom was here and we learned it meant this thing so we did this" but **** that. It doesn't mean shit to me. As much as I would like to be accurate and say "there is no free will we are guided by instinct and surroundings" I don't want to. Maybe this makes me a sissy, less of a man or something. I don't care. I would rather believe that we can make our own decisions as an act of free will than to be some kind of accuracy whore. I would rather believe in what it looks like than "this atom told us to do this, you didn't make a decision at all".


The subject is very complicated, and we have no need to learn it for everyday life, so don't sweat it. Outside of the context of debates centered on free will, religion, and psycology, you might as well have free will: it's just not an issue in everyday events.


Quote from Zurbz
Pretty much making this thread has defied your theory. Why would anything influence your thoughts on this. You simply became aware on your own. Now if everything were on a track, then the course would not allow you to become self aware, as that risks a chance of breaking the track. Although, the course could quite possibly bound you to become self-aware....well..... I guess you'll never be able to tell, since if you come to a true conclusion, your already bound to right now. And the thoughts that you think have influenced your actions, were already set and supposed to happen.


Firstly, your argument is on the basis that I could betray the predetermined path I say is set by the universe's begining if I were self aware, but that argument is self-defeating. It relies on the existance of self-awareness, but this thread is an attempt to show that there is no such thing as being "self aware", assuming that you are using "self aware" interchangably with "having free will".
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