Hell fists aren't weak anymore.

Quote from jli

Hell fists aren't weak anymore.

Oh yeah. Edits on the way.
http://pastebin.com/fSPEaYzr

It depends on maps and how much effort u put on an empire. If u play Order more than Chaos, then ur Order skills must be better. Same with Chaos. It's all about skill-skill-skill. No empire has more advantage than another.
The "skills" I'm talking about not only build fast and click fast, it also involve fast thinking, how quick u change ur strategy when u see ur opponent's build (or may be u already know ur opponent build from last fight-replay)

"Speartons holds more potential than Juggers. More tanky than Speartons."??? Dafuq?
My turn! Le Order RAGE!
For Order, bombers and crawlers are DEADLY in the right hands. They can (HOW???) Hit'n'Run swords without taking dam. A lot of swords? Bombs. Archer? Bombs and crawlers. -__- And so, Order lost mid. AND Chaos get EVEN MORE GOLD from mid. And that's the early game phase.

Mid game time! Like stated above, jugs+wings used to rape, but with the nerf Order IS SPARED! YAY! If not for the Marrow buff...-_- ALSO! Damn Chaos can continue to pressure us, preventing us from the 2nd gold mines while THEY have better eco AND OP tower(Lotsa gold). So...They out-eco, out-army us AND have mid (And ghost).

End game...MAGE! Reaped or stoned. LE ALBAS! Le bombers and Deads... Le Merics? Jugs or dies like mage. Archer+spears? Wings+jugs rape em easily. And so...Chaos: Problem? *trollface*

Quote from GamerXD8

"Speartons holds more potential than Juggers. More tanky than Speartons."??? Dafuq?
My turn! Le Order RAGE!
For Order, bombers and crawlers are DEADLY in the right hands. They can (HOW???) Hit'n'Run swords without taking dam. A lot of swords? Bombs. Archer? Bombs and crawlers. -__- And so, Order lost mid. AND Chaos get EVEN MORE GOLD from mid. And that's the early game phase.

Mid game time! Like stated above, jugs+wings used to rape, but with the nerf Order IS SPARED! YAY! If not for the Marrow buff...-_- ALSO! Damn Chaos can continue to pressure us, preventing us from the 2nd gold mines while THEY have better eco AND OP tower(Lotsa gold). So...They out-eco, out-army us AND have mid (And ghost).

End game...MAGE! Reaped or stoned. LE ALBAS! Le bombers and Deads... Le Merics? Jugs or dies like mage. Archer+spears? Wings+jugs rape em easily. And so...Chaos: Problem? *trollface*

While I agree with some parts, but I don't agree with all.

If we actually think about it, it's hard for normal Chaos players to play Chaos. You must have faced a professional one, who knows what they are doing.

If someone gave me Chaos, I'm 100% sure I'm going to screw up. Someone is Sword massing? No problem, let me buy some bomb- OH SHIT DON'T ATTACK (boom! wasted economy). NO! STOP KILLING MY CRAWLERS (Wasted my units). OMG! STOP RUSHING WITH YOUR SPEARTON (Lame Castle Dead). etc.

My opponent Giant massed? I'm screwed.

Quote from GamerXD8

Damn Chaos can continue to pressure us, preventing us from the 2nd gold mines while THEY have better eco AND OP tower(Lotsa gold).

Giant mass? A pro don't even LET you do it. See this?

@Narsheh: u should pressure the opponent more.
I never let my opponent have 2nd Giant without any damage on 1st Giant (at least damage 3/4 health on 1st Giant or kill it)
Don't waste ur time standing at the middle and retreat when 3 Order Giant comes out

Well then... uh... I'm not sure about you guys, but I'm able to beat Chaos players 1800+ and under. Yeah, I suck against pro players, but at least they aren't computers.

I actually pity Chaos players under 1800+ because of how poorly they started (and how bad I actually destroyed them). Some of them brought out too many bombers when I only have 3 Swordwraths, some only used Crawlers which were poorly microed, etc.

These were the reasons why I felt that Chaos was somewhat balanced. I'm sure if we only faced Chaos players all the time, we'll naturally develop a counter against them.

Quote from _Ai_

I think this is the thread that has been made several times. Now, this is the time to settle this. So that there will be no more thread.

Orderians thinks Chaos is more powerful.
Chaos thinks Order is more powerful.
Well thats not wrong, is it?

From Orders view, Chaos is strong. Why?

They can make an almost endless stream of Crawlers.
Bombers obliterate low tier units to smithereens.
Juggerknights are stronger than Speartons.
Wingidons, although weaker, but is faster, and also cost less mana and population compared to Albatross.
Medusa one hit kills units other than Giants.
Marrowkai reaps every units.
CGiant have more health, deals AOE damage to 3 units at once.
Passive Regen.
Deads have poison guts, and wins to both Albatross and Archer.

Thats Orders view. Chaos's view?

Order have Swords, which is stronger than Crawlers. Rage kills them all.
Speartons holds more potential than Juggers. More tanky than Speartons.
Bombers and Crawlers are in the same queue, but Sword Archer arent.
Bombers are too fragile.
Wingidons die to Poison Spray.
Merics Heals and Cures faster than Passive Heal & Cure.
Magikill's a beast.
Archers can kite.

That's my take on both empires. I also have counters to my reasons.

Counter to my reasons :
To Order, we struggle with weak eco. A good micro is needed to send miners to mine, while microing crawlers to not die to swords.
Bombers are 1 use only. If we spent too much, it will dent our eco.
Deads are slow.
Petrify have a long recharge time. Toxic Pool has close range.
Predatory Edge & Pack Mentality is expensive early game.
Poison Guts costs mana.

I dunno why the counter to Order. Help me come up with them.
Though, updates might change some of these. I'll be sure to edit this when the time comes.

So there. Make sure you read this through.

If you ever understand chaos, rage is suicide. It takes 3 bombs to kill a normal sword. Now, it takes 2 to kill a raging sword. Rage also causes lag, making the time to split far more worse, so, most likely, u won't be able to split your swords.Archers can kite. That doesn't prove anything. Wingadons can kite too. Merics can also be easily taken down, by a couple of wingadons and Wingadons will stil survive from poison spray. No one uses deads anymore, and no one upgrades pack mentality anymore lol, and toxic pool will stay there for a long time, and can block miners from mining if they do not have merics
Xate, WyzDM uses miner wall to continue from 2nd row, and then uses giants and magikills

Quote from GamerXD8

"Speartons holds more potential than Juggers. More tanky than Speartons."??? Dafuq?
My turn! Le Order RAGE!
For Order, bombers and crawlers are DEADLY in the right hands. They can (HOW???) Hit'n'Run swords without taking dam. A lot of swords? Bombs. Archer? Bombs and crawlers. -__- And so, Order lost mid. AND Chaos get EVEN MORE GOLD from mid. And that's the early game phase.

Mid game time! Like stated above, jugs+wings used to rape, but with the nerf Order IS SPARED! YAY! If not for the Marrow buff...-_- ALSO! Damn Chaos can continue to pressure us, preventing us from the 2nd gold mines while THEY have better eco AND OP tower(Lotsa gold). So...They out-eco, out-army us AND have mid (And ghost).

End game...MAGE! Reaped or stoned. LE ALBAS! Le bombers and Deads... Le Merics? Jugs or dies like mage. Archer+spears? Wings+jugs rape em easily. And so...Chaos: Problem? *trollface*

Sorry for the lack of line-breaks.
If you rush an archer with bombs+crawl you need (at least) two crawlers and 2 bombs, when a chaos player does this it's guaranteed that the bombs will die (duh) and you are probably going to lose some crawlers. While this is going on you (the order player) still have those swords to kill the remaining crawlers. Order wins middle. Your marrow point is moot, as this is 400 gold and 400 mana down the drain. Marrows are slow, hell fists is easlily dodged, reap kills MAYBE one archer and they die quickly if charged by armors, meaning you're out 450 gold and 500 mana (from marrow+hell fists upgrade). Remember, the best way for chaos to deal with a mage is stoning it BUT, what I would do (and I'm sure many others) would just use juggers to rush it, however, if we have pushed back order they just hid behind their precious walls and use merics to get to full health. Medusa? End game unit. Its slow and is taken down EASILY by armors. Albas? They fuck up our flyers and juggers if you have them our wings need to shoot them down, meaning no damage from wings to their armors. AND if they have a mage by this point (most likely) we need to kill it with jugs while being attacked by spears. Any order player will have merics and remember: constant healing > more damage. Your point with archer+spear? Wings can't hit those archers when they hide behind spears, then if we move behind the spears to get a clear shot order just runs to the other side. Using the jugs to kill archers? Archers just runnn awayyy behind the walls and get healed by the brokenly-powerful merics. They dont have walls you say? Garison+castle archer. Order giants and mages! Chaos's bane. Do I even need to explain why? Your point about chaos being able to pressure you is pointless. order can do that too, and do it better. Swords and archers anyone? "UHHH but bommbbbssssssssss" Run back and use your damn archers, idiot! Bombs can only do damage if your opponent is being dumb. Ugh. I rant too much.

That is a good rant, as it contributes to the thread. Go on.

Another thing, against any order rush build deads are completely useless. Poison you say? wont do much when your ranged support is GONE and your juggers are wasting away to the rain of arrow fire. GG.

Giant massing is also a complete BITCH to deal with. Especially on a large map like green hills where pressure is nonexistant. "Giant mass? A pro don't even LET you do it." Wrong. When you hide behind your precious walls your archers and spears stop any attempt at an advance while you tech to giants and mages. Once you got those giants you can send up some archers to get some scratch damage and lure in the enemy forces. Once you have a healthy amount of giants and charge the middle with your giants/merics/leftover archers+spears/mages its not easy to stop. I need to play at my very peak to stop this from being my end. And even then Its unlikely that I win. "NNNGGGG BUT YOU HAVE THE MIDDLLLEEEEEEE." And you have a sizable army and an untouchable econ, all while stopping any attempt at advance. When those order giants come it wont matter if we have the middle. Even with tower 2 your Giants (And the archers and merics you will surely have!) will kill off the ghost and before it comes back our flyers and juggers will have died. If you have mages too, theres no stopping the advance. "BUT MEDUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" Thats 5 population, 5 population which could go to more flyers or a giant. And even IF we had enough medusas to kill all your mages our forces wouldn't be enough to handle the giants. GG

Quote from IHATETHISNAME

Another thing, against any order rush build deads are completely useless. Poison you say? wont do much when your ranged support is GONE and your juggers are wasting away to the rain of arrow fire. GG.

Giant massing is also a complete BITCH to deal with. Especially on a large map like green hills where pressure is nonexistant. "Giant mass? A pro don't even LET you do it." Wrong. When you hide behind your precious walls your archers and spears stop any attempt at an advance while you tech to giants and mages. Once you got those giants you can send up some archers to get some scratch damage and lure in the enemy forces. Once you have a healthy amount of giants and charge the middle with your giants/merics/leftover archers+spears/mages its not easy to stop. I need to play at my very peak to stop this from being my end. And even then Its unlikely that I win. "NNNGGGG BUT YOU HAVE THE MIDDLLLEEEEEEE." And you have a sizable army and an untouchable econ, all while stopping any attempt at advance. When those order giants come it wont matter if we have the middle. Even with tower 2 your Giants (And the archers and merics you will surely have!) will kill off the ghost and before it comes back our flyers and juggers will have died. If you have mages too, theres no stopping the advance. "BUT MEDUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" Thats 5 population, 5 population which could go to more flyers or a giant. And even IF we had enough medusas to kill all your mages our forces wouldn't be enough to handle the giants. GG

Chaos's giants have so much health, accompanied by wingadons and medusa, they are almost unstoppable

Quote from stickman311

Chaos's giants have so much health, accompanied by wingadons and medusa, they are almost unstoppable

They have more health, so what? They can be taken down easily enough. Hell, I was able to use 4 marrows and 6 deads to bring down 2 chaos giants backed by a crapload of wings. Lost in the end though. Lack of econ and all. Besides that you can just RUN AROUND them and they do absolutely nothing in terms of damage. Remember, 1 order giant is STILL better than 1 chaos giant.

Dont believe my story? Heres some proof: www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay1412467&version=1.64