Corporal Punishment, should you not already know, is defined as follows:
a form of physical punishment that involves the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to deter attitudes or behaviour deemed unacceptable.

Corporal Punishment has been completely banned in most of Europe, Canada, New Zealand, Korea, and Kenya. Many countries have partial bans on it that simply prevent excessive cruelty in the form of punishment.

With varying laws around the world, I'd like to pose a question:
To what degree should Corporal Punishment be allowed within school systems?

There shouldn't be corporal punishment at schools, in my opinion.

First of all, corporal punishment will only grow anger and traumas on students, and when they grow up, they'll think that hitting their kids is right because people did the same thing with them.

secondly, institutions shouldn't be allowed to treat children like if they were their own kids. If a student do something wrong, they shouldn't punish them in any way (suspentions and/or expulsions should be the only punishment or preventive they may use; to prevent the event repeats itself again). If something happens, they should notify their parents about what they did, and the parent's should decide how to punish him and how they should solve the problem.

Quote from ForgottenUser

Corporal Punishment has been completely banned in most of Europe, Canada, New Zealand, Korea, and Kenya.

Has it not been banned in the US? I'd have thought I'd have seen that on The Simpsons or something (which is where I get all my knowledge of American culture).

I'm not really against corporal punishment, but there are other ways of punishing a kid.

Quote from Zed

I'm not really against corporal punishment, but there are other ways of punishing a kid.

Well instead of those sort of punishments, is it not better to punish kids using their minds?
aka making them feel guilty for what they have done instead of physically punishing them.

Better in what way? If you mean that it will affect them more then perhaps, but in that case it's at least as cruel as corporal punishment.

Quote from Zed

Better in what way? If you mean that it will affect them more then perhaps, but in that case it's at least as cruel as corporal punishment.

Indeed it is the same amount of cruel, but people will not notice it like physical punishments.
aka if you punish a child with a slap people will either see you doing it or see the mark but if you do it with your brain then you got a less chance of being caught for doing it.



and as usual this conversation is probably going to end with me looking like a frickin moron,

Ok, if your goal is sadism then I'm with you, but I assumed this thread was about the morality of different punishments.

Quote from Zed

Ok, if your goal is sadism then I'm with you, but I assumed this thread was about the morality of different punishments.

Which I do believe it is.

anyway to stop sounding too sadistic

Quote from ForgottenUser

To what degree should Corporal Punishment be allowed within school systems?

I personally find that there should be that type of punishment BUT to a certain degree
Meaning: if you miss homework then no physical punishment. But if you fight with someone there will be a physical punishment

In china if you do something bad in school they whack your hand with a ruler.
I think thats fine.

Quote from Kodoku

There shouldn't be corporal punishment at schools, in my opinion.

First of all, corporal punishment will only grow anger and traumas on students, and when they grow up, they'll think that hitting their kids is right because people did the same thing with them.
This is sidestepping the question. The purpose of the thread is to determine if corporal punishment is alright, and if so, to what degree. Saying that is assuming corporal punishment is already wrong.

secondly, institutions shouldn't be allowed to treat children like if they were their own kids. If a student do something wrong, they shouldn't punish them in any way (suspentions and/or expulsions should be the only punishment or preventive they may use; to prevent the event repeats itself again). If something happens, they should notify their parents about what they did, and the parent's should decide how to punish him and how they should solve the problem.
I can't beat that point on moral grounds, so I'll opt for legal. In places where corporal punishment is implemented, parents have to sign a waiver that says it's ok, or their child can't be enrolled there, so they already have the consent of the parent(s).

Quote from Zed

Has it not been banned in the US?
It's partially banned. Most states have it completely banned, but a few still have it implemented.

.

I'm pretty sure corporal punishment has been shown to have negative effect on children:

Quote from The American Psychoanalytic Association]
...research shows that physical punishment is associated with increases in delinquency, antisocial behavior, and aggression in children, and decreases in the quality of the parent-child relationship, children's mental health, and children's capacity to internalize socially acceptable behavior...
[/QUOTE]
Source: http://www.apsa.org/About_APsaA/Position_Statements/Physical_Punishment.aspx

If you are incapable of controlling a child without getting physical you should just do your best to stay away from them in my opinion.

My experience with kids has taught me that there are very few kids that are inherently undisciplined but simply don't fit into the box that education tends to stuff them in. Teachers should help kids discover their traits, rather then beat down their quirks.

[QUOTE=ForgottenUser

This is sidestepping the question. The purpose of the thread is to determine if corporal punishment is alright, and if so, to what degree. Saying that is assuming corporal punishment is already wrong.

I don't see how that is sidestepping.. Should we be assuming it is alright to a degree? There have been numerous studies that show that Kodaku is about the fact that adults that were subject to corporal punishment as children are more to consider it alright.

Quote from Gunnii

I'm pretty sure corporal punishment has been shown to have negative effect on children:
Source: http://www.apsa.org/About_APsaA/Position_Statements/Physical_Punishment.aspx
The study might have some bias to it. It was taken on children who were exposed to Corporal Punishment, but kids who had to be punished in the first place are were probably already aggressive and not as intelligent as the rest of their peers, which may be why they had to get punished in the first place.

Even if the study isn't biased, corporal punishment also correlates with discipline.

If you are incapable of controlling a child without getting physical you should just do your best to stay away from them in my opinion.
I'd agree with you if it was just one or two kids. That shows that you're bad with children. However, the average size of a classroom in the US is at about 20 kids per every classroom with one teacher. What with the teacher vs. students mentality as of late, it's hard to control entire classrooms with the only threat being 'We'll have to to talk to your parents about this' and then 'You have to go to a different school'. Even if one kid goes to detention for disrupting the class, it'll be someone else the next day. Even if they do get expelled from the school, they just get transferred elsewhere, which solves nothing. That's just moving the problem around and not dealing with it.

My experience with kids has taught me that there are very few kids that are inherently undisciplined but simply don't fit into the box that education tends to stuff them in. Teachers should help kids discover their traits, rather then beat down their quirks.
Shouldn't teachers try to do both? Say you're good at animating, but are too lazy to get anything accomplished. Sure, the teacher should encourage you to animate, but you still have the problem that you're lazy.

I don't see how that is sidestepping.. Should we be assuming it is alright to a degree? There have been numerous studies that show that Kodaku is right about the fact that adults that were subject to corporal punishment as children are more to consider it alright.
The beginning of his statement should have simply been disregarded. It had none of the studies attached to it, and presented itself as an Ignoratio elenchi fallacy. I'd also like to point out that I'm debating for corporal punishment regardless of the fact that I haven't been subjected to corporal punishment within schools (and rarely at home).

All that being said, corporal punishment was pretty common 20 years ago, and it's not like everyone 30 years or older right now is an aggressive idiot.

Quote from ForgottenUser

The study might have some bias to it. It was taken on children who were exposed to Corporal Punishment, but kids who had to be punished in the first place are were probably already aggressive and not as intelligent as the rest of their peers, which may be why they had to get punished in the first place.

Even if the study isn't biased, corporal punishment also correlates with discipline.

I just want to point out that the current way the educational system is set up is pretty horrible for individuals who don't fit into the spectrum of what we consider normal. Punishing a child that has ADHD for having trouble sitting still wont be beneficial for anyone. I've got some experience working with kids, many that don't have any behavioral issues and some that do, and I can guarantee that most of the kids you consider unintelligent are simply not cut out for the predetermined box they are pushed into. I also fail to see how acting aggressively towards a child that acts aggressively will help.

I'd agree with you if it was just one or two kids. That shows that you're bad with children. However, the average size of a classroom in the US is at about 20 kids per every classroom with one teacher.

I do agree that classroom size is way to big, although I don't see that as a justification for using violence as a disciplinary tool, first off because it has been proven ineffective in comparison to other methods, and also because of the negative effects that tend to follow.

What with the teacher vs. students mentality as of late, it's hard to control entire classrooms with the only threat being 'We'll have to to talk to your parents about this' and then 'You have to go to a different school'. Even if one kid goes to detention for disrupting the class, it'll be someone else the next day. Even if they do get expelled from the school, they just get transferred elsewhere, which solves nothing. That's just moving the problem around and not dealing with it.

If you are not creative enough to figure out a way to punish children without violence you are clearly not fit for dealing with them. A teacher should have real consequences for bad behavior, but the child will never understand violence as a fair punishment since we teach children that violence is bad their whole life.

Shouldn't teachers try to do both? Say you're good at animating, but are too lazy to get anything accomplished. Sure, the teacher should encourage you to animate, but you still have the problem that you're lazy.

And do you think beating the child would inspire it to finish something?

The beginning of his statement should have simply been disregarded. It had none of the studies attached to it, and presented itself as an Ignoratio elenchi fallacy. I'd also like to point out that I'm debating for corporal punishment regardless of the fact that I haven't been subjected to corporal punishment within schools (and rarely at home).

And he's debating against it, how does that make his statement a fallacy?
He mentioned real consequences of the very thing we are discussing, although the should have referred to some evidence it still does not make his points a fallacy.

I also want to note that numerous studies have shown a correlation between corporal punishment and crime rates and other similar factors but I can't find much about the cause of this correlation. While I can't say whether bad behavior is the cause of physical punishment or whether physical punishment causes bad behavior I can say that children should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Quote from Gunnii

I just want to point out that the current way the educational system is set up is pretty horrible for individuals who don't fit into the spectrum of what we consider normal. Punishing a child that has ADHD for having trouble sitting still wont be beneficial for anyone. I've got some experience working with kids, many that don't have any behavioral issues and some that do, and I can guarantee that most of the kids you consider unintelligent are simply not cut out for the predetermined box they are pushed into. I also fail to see how acting aggressively towards a child that acts aggressively will help.
It's true that the educational system isn't set-up well for kids who have ADHD, ADD and the like. Corporal Punishment is ineffective in such cases, but I would think non-violent punishment is just as bad in that regard. Telling the kid to settle down or sending them to detention does nothing but waste the kid's time even further.

I do agree that classroom size is way to big, although I don't see that as a justification for using violence as a disciplinary tool, first off because it has been proven ineffective in comparison to other methods, and also because of the negative effects that tend to follow.
If you can prove that there's a better way to deal with an entire class, then there's no purpose in continuing this debate. Also, you haven't given any reason for us to think that there isn't bias in the research that was conducted.

If you are not creative enough to figure out a way to punish children without violence you are clearly not fit for dealing with them. A teacher should have real consequences for bad behavior, but the child will never understand violence as a fair punishment since we teach children that violence is bad their whole life.
The current non-violent system isn't working well, and that's obvious enough. What would you suggest as a practical alternative?

And do you think beating the child would inspire it to finish something?
The kid should be able to differentiate between getting punished for their laziness and being praised for their animation skills. For corporal punishment to be done correctly, you're supposed to tell them why you punished them, otherwise it's just unnecessary cruelty that they won't understand.

And he's debating against it, how does that make his statement a fallacy?
It's a fact that adds nothing for either side of the argument. It's like me saying:
"My parents didn't punish me while growing up, so I'm not likely to punish my kids."
I suppose that's not a fallacy, but you get my point?

I also want to note that numerous studies have shown a correlation between corporal punishment and crime rates and other similar factors but I can't find much about the cause of this correlation. While I can't say whether bad behavior is the cause of physical punishment or whether physical punishment causes bad behavior I can say that children should be given the benefit of the doubt.
It'll be interesting to see some studies done on these new generations of people who were subjected to a non-violent education system.

.

If you can prove that there's a better way to deal with an entire class, then there's no purpose in continuing this debate.

Positive reinforcement has been proven over and over as a more effective way, endorsing good behavior does work better then punishing bad behavior, that much was established by B.F. Skinner and the like in the 1930's and -40s. They showed that punishment showed positive effects in the short term, but looking at longer periods of time it did not prove effective.
Most psychologists agree that corporal punishment it not effective, Elizabeth Gershoff and Graham Bermann analyzed decades of research into the matter and published a paper about their research in 2008. In the paper they encouraged caretakers not to use corporal punishment. The paper was endorsed by a number of institutions, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medical Association and Psychologists for Social Responsibility.[source]

Also, you haven't given any reason for us to think that there isn't bias in the research that was conducted.

I'd think that the American Psychoanalytic Association is a fairly scientific institution, and the references they list seem legit. I have also yet to see a single psychological institution that endorse corporal punishment.

The current non-violent system isn't working well, and that's obvious enough. What would you suggest as a practical alternative?

I would argue that has more to do with the actual way the educational system is set up as a whole, rather then the lack of punishment. For example, the problem with class sizes isn't that teachers don't have an effective way to discipline the class as a whole, the problem is that the class is to big. I believe the current educational system needs a complete overhaul.

He points out some of the problems with the current one-size-fits-all system that is in place.