no he cannot without suffering eco wise.
he does not have tower to begin with so going into cats and bombs will leave him without miners.
my scorps will take miners if he doesnt do anything about them.
garrisoning will prevent him from collecting income.
meanwhile i save up for either a castle air or an air to protect my tree.
if he charges consistently a castle air makes sense. if he begins to target your tree the air makes sense more so.
the stream does not exist. i tend to put my first 2 miners on pray until they have 100 for tree. then keep them there an extra few seconds for 30 for at least 1 death blossom.
if done correctly your next tree should be ready before the first one is in danger of dying.
crawlers do terrible damage to the tree.
if you ignore the first ones and atk the miners he will have a difficult time building up a crawler force.
bombers wont really help
not to mention that you can keep a scorp close to gate and prevent him from being able to control his bombs.
it depends on map size a lot.

Quote from pumuecils

no he cannot without suffering eco wise.
he does not have tower to begin with so going into cats and bombs will leave him without miners.
my scorps will take miners if he doesnt do anything about them.
garrisoning will prevent him from collecting income.
meanwhile i save up for either a castle air or an air to protect my tree.
if he charges consistently a castle air makes sense. if he begins to target your tree the air makes sense more so.
the stream does not exist. i tend to put my first 2 miners on pray until they have 100 for tree. then keep them there an extra few seconds for 30 for at least 1 death blossom.
if done correctly your next tree should be ready before the first one is in danger of dying.
crawlers do terrible damage to the tree.
if you ignore the first ones and atk the miners he will have a difficult time building up a crawler force.
bombers wont really help
not to mention that you can keep a scorp close to gate and prevent him from being able to control his bombs.
it depends on map size a lot.

If you rush 130 mana for a tree start your eco will be drastically behind against Chaos. They don't really need to do anything but stall out with recycling crawlers and they can bring out stronger units after the stall. Short maps I reckon tree start EvC still works but on longer ones I doubt it is even viable. Much like the rest of ele >.<

Quote from pumuecils

no he cannot without suffering eco wise.
he does not have tower to begin with so going into cats and bombs will leave him without miners.
my scorps will take miners if he doesnt do anything about them.
garrisoning will prevent him from collecting income.
meanwhile i save up for either a castle air or an air to protect my tree.
if he charges consistently a castle air makes sense. if he begins to target your tree the air makes sense more so.
the stream does not exist. i tend to put my first 2 miners on pray until they have 100 for tree. then keep them there an extra few seconds for 30 for at least 1 death blossom.
if done correctly your next tree should be ready before the first one is in danger of dying.
crawlers do terrible damage to the tree.
if you ignore the first ones and atk the miners he will have a difficult time building up a crawler force.
bombers wont really help
not to mention that you can keep a scorp close to gate and prevent him from being able to control his bombs.
it depends on map size a lot.

I have thought of five different builds for Ele vs chaos
but none of them work

I am quite sure it is impossible to beat chaos in current meta, especially when you face chaos player who is 2.2k+

think about this

for 3 earth start, it is very trouble because even though you have high eco, you have nothing to block bomber rush.

for air start, it costs you 400 gold, if your opponent use 2 crawlers with 2 miner start, he has one miner ahead of you , and if you keep your air in the centre, the opponent can use crawler meat shield with bomber support to make your air away.
In addition, if you use your air to pressure in the beginning, then once your opponent gets castle dead, you got poison and have to garrison. And then you lose your tower control and eco fall behind as well.

for tree start, your eco sucks in the beginning. And three scorpions cannot really help you much if your opponent gets a turret/castle dead with bomber support, you cannot pressure effectively due to low spawn rate. And once opponent 's first wing comes out, you cannot do anything .

for fire start, which is probably the most viable start, can prevent you from bomber rush with kiting. But crawler meat shield with bomber may kill the fire, and once the first fire die, it is auto gg.
Besides, the eco sucks a lot in the beginning, and cannot pressure much due to castle dead. And same problem as air start, you have to garrison and lose tower once there is a castle dead.

so there is actually no good start. All start sucks, and it is only possible to win against bad chaos player.

Quote from mysterybat

I have thought of five different builds for Ele vs chaos
but none of them work

I am quite sure it is impossible to beat chaos in current meta, especially when you face chaos player who is 2.2k+

think about this

for 3 earth start, it is very trouble because even though you have high eco, you have nothing to block bomber rush.

for air start, it costs you 400 gold, if your opponent use 2 crawlers with 2 miner start, he has one miner ahead of you , and if you keep your air in the centre, the opponent can use crawler meat shield with bomber support to make your air away.
In addition, if you use your air to pressure in the beginning, then once your opponent gets castle dead, you got poison and have to garrison. And then you lose your tower control and eco fall behind as well.

for tree start, your eco sucks in the beginning. And three scorpions cannot really help you much if your opponent gets a turret/castle dead with bomber support, you cannot pressure effectively due to low spawn rate. And once opponent 's first wing comes out, you cannot do anything .

for fire start, which is probably the most viable start, can prevent you from bomber rush with kiting. But crawler meat shield with bomber may kill the fire, and once the first fire die, it is auto gg.
Besides, the eco sucks a lot in the beginning, and cannot pressure much due to castle dead. And same problem as air start, you have to garrison and lose tower once there is a castle dead.

so there is actually no good start. All start sucks, and it is only possible to win against bad chaos player.

Few things.
A turret that early?
Castle dead does nothing to tree. Scorps will still take a miner.
You two aren't thinking things all the way through.
If he bull rushes the miners I simply build a castle air
Especially if its on a long map.
I have control of tower.
Crawlers and bombs will not be defending the miners.
Killing units that cost gold to build with the bolts.
If he has three bombs. Death blossom takes one away.
His miners either die or garrison. Either way I'm forcing gold to stall.
And I have tower.
Giving me 20 points for every few seconds that pass.
This will put me ahead in pop if he stays in base.
Crawlers take forever to take the tree down.
His won't be able to micro the miners and crawlers at all times.
I'll eventually gain my air and will begin to ignore his ground force.
If he goes early mama I prioritize em to delays his man's since the only units that can spawn after are bombers,crawlers, and miners.
Beat 2.3k and occasionally higher ranked chaos with merely trees and suppression on resources.

Quote from pumuecils

Castle dead does nothing to tree. Scorps will still take a miner.

What is then stopping a chaos player from locking down your economy with bombers? Castle air? Good luck getting one up before I can rush bombers, unless it's a long map, in which case... why did you tree start?

Once three scorpions go down you have to wait for them to come back before tree can be of any use. Let us also not forget that miners will do surprisingly high dps against trees. (A properly used miner without hustle can 1v1 a sword and win. Neat, huh?)

I think they really need to make inferno's meteors hit air units. The electric wall, poison puddle, and the hell fists can hit air units. Fires and airs are too weak. Cycloid is melee and will get kited. I think that's a necessary buff.

you guys have a thread on how weak this empire is while I just fool around and rank 2400 no problem.

Didn't you rank to 2600 with Order though?

Quote from pumuecils

Few things.
A turret that early?
Castle dead does nothing to tree. Scorps will still take a miner.
You two aren't thinking things all the way through.
If he bull rushes the miners I simply build a castle air
Especially if its on a long map.
I have control of tower.
Crawlers and bombs will not be defending the miners.
Killing units that cost gold to build with the bolts.
If he has three bombs. Death blossom takes one away.
His miners either die or garrison. Either way I'm forcing gold to stall.
And I have tower.
Giving me 20 points for every few seconds that pass.
This will put me ahead in pop if he stays in base.
Crawlers take forever to take the tree down.
His won't be able to micro the miners and crawlers at all times.
I'll eventually gain my air and will begin to ignore his ground force.
If he goes early mama I prioritize em to delays his man's since the only units that can spawn after are bombers,crawlers, and miners.
Beat 2.3k and occasionally higher ranked chaos with merely trees and suppression on resources.

I have tried trees for like 100 times before those tree nerfs, that might work before.

however, after like 12 patches updates with like 6 nerfs to trees, I am quite sure tree pressure does not work.

Think about this, even you use tree to pressure his eco, he can simply use 1-2 bombers to take out your team of scorpions, at the same time continuing his eco.
If you put your tree too forward, your tree can die easily. If you put your tree behind, then you cannot pressure opponent easily due to long distance.
Once your first team of scorpions die, your tree is useless for quite a while with your eco sucks.

Besides, castle air to take out bomber? It is a bad decision when I use crawler meat shield with three bombers behind. Your castle air is single target and can only take out my crawler instead of bomber. If you garrison your miners, I gain enough time to glow. If you do not garrison , then if I kill 2-3 of your miners, it is auto gg.

Also I don't think a top chaos player will be that stupid to target your tree with his crawler. Unless you pressure so hard, once a chaos player gets his first wing out at around 3:10, you cannot do anything and will gradually fall behind.

Quote from WyzDM

you guys have a thread on how weak this empire is while I just fool around and rank 2400 no problem.

Think about who you are before you say this . I did not meet any single elemental player who can really beat me in ranked matches for like three months already. And you are the only one who can really beat me with elemental. Using a number 1 position to compare with the general player community is quite absurd.

I beat you too mystery :c
Respect nonetheless for your gameplay.
The problem is wyz.
People are usually intimidated right away when they see your username.
This increases the tendency of the opponent to fuck up.
Not to mention your abilities in game.
I'm trying my best to figure out exactly at what points in game units become the most influential.
Maybe you can contribute your methods of handling chaos?
It's kinda mean to grace us with your presence just to say, "psst... I'm a boss" and then vanish.
Maybe I can also help other peeps here with their ele gameplay.
I passed up both your accounts btw wyz :P
That is until urgh blah decided to hop on the shared account and fuck up my 62 win streak.
I watched a recent vid of you vs urghblah on the account iamxsos.
He went deads. And I was like.... I'm done.
Then I think I watched someone go two archers with only two miners. That was obvious that the next move was castle air.
How would u rank my, mystery's and hattori's ele?
Each person would be nice.
(Also would be nice to see more activity from ya.)

Quote from pumuecils

pumuencil's soliloquy (Click to Show)

I beat you too mystery :c
Respect nonetheless for your gameplay.
The problem is wyz.
People are usually intimidated right away when they see your username.
This increases the tendency of the opponent to fuck up.
Not to mention your abilities in game.
I'm trying my best to figure out exactly at what points in game units become the most influential.
Maybe you can contribute your methods of handling chaos?
It's kinda mean to grace us with your presence just to say, "psst... I'm a boss" and then vanish.
Maybe I can also help other peeps here with their ele gameplay.
I passed up both your accounts btw wyz :P
That is until urgh blah decided to hop on the shared account and fuck up my 62 win streak.
I watched a recent vid of you vs urghblah on the account iamxsos.
He went deads. And I was like.... I'm done.
Then I think I watched someone go two archers with only two miners. That was obvious that the next move was castle air.
How would u rank my, mystery's and hattori's ele?
Each person would be nice.
(Also would be nice to see more activity from ya.)

This has literally nothing to do with the topic.

Quote from nutsophast

I think they really need to make inferno's meteors hit air units. The electric wall, poison puddle, and the hell fists can hit air units. Fires and airs are too weak. Cycloid is melee and will get kited. I think that's a necessary buff.

Or they could just rebalance the units so they have viable options throughout the game rather than just balance around a single unit.

What I do with elementals users like monarchist and minkra have already exploited. Don't look at me like my elemental skills are even better than anyone elses, they're not. I just pick on treatures and fires being stupidly good.

And no, I never hit 2600 with Order. Probably will never. OvE is the worst matchup atm and I can't friggin stand it. And before y'all judge me for being too quick with this, it's not my personal bad matchup, it's how elementals shit on order if they just make smart start game macro based on stage length. That's all it freakin takes to win.

Quote from WyzDM

What I do with elementals users like monarchist and minkra have already exploited. Don't look at me like my elemental skills are even better than anyone elses, they're not. I just pick on treatures and fires being stupidly good.

And no, I never hit 2600 with Order. Probably will never. OvE is the worst matchup atm and I can't friggin stand it. And before y'all judge me for being too quick with this, it's not my personal bad matchup, it's how elementals shit on order if they just make smart start game macro based on stage length. That's all it freakin takes to win.

Essentially this. Order has to play from behind and on the defensive the whole game to survive, and even then you can still be fucked over.

Ele has to constantly push.
To every coin there are two sides.
Guddah and mystery caught on to the patterns that exploit ele weaknesses.

Scorps push without costing resources after initial purchase of tree.
Thusly trees are cost effecient and can actually keep field position a bit more than charrogs in certain scenarios.
Fires- they tend to do peak damage vs higher armored units than lower.
Tends to be why spears are often times used much less than swords even later in the game. As they are expendable gold.
I tend to counteract this by using infernoes. Without much fear of any unit aside from those that invest in shinobi one and two.
Does this formula apply to y'all too?
Trees: base of army (melee wise and occasional support)
Charrogs: mere tanks.
Fires: tank removable and kiting ranged.
Airs: ranged that can simply ignore most melee situations.
Inferno: Eco and anti-mass support spell caster.
V: mainly I only use these when I see giants beginning to spawn.
Scorch: after opponent researches hustle this tends to have limited use. Inferno is rechargeable. And actually leaves a bigger influence on units than scorch. The knock back and area of effect is nice though. Slightly larger than Vastolis
Cycloid: Derp. For trolling u can use two well placed tornado spells to take out kiting arches.
Blind gate: decoration.
Vs chaos-
Tree: base
Charrog: if for some reason your opponent has a large force of deads or stalls with turrets.
V: lol. I posses bombers. YOLO
Cycloid: Main wing combatant.
Airs: main ranged. Ignores most units early-mid game.
Fires: I tend to stay away from these vs chaos.
Scorch: used often for me. Mid game to Eco.
Inferno: Eco harassment. Occasional crawler suppressant for those that fancy wing crawler builds vs ele.

mystery went 1-5 with my elementals maybe even worse. only players I've lost consistently too was marrowkai master because micro play with him is impossible and you need that in evc.

Evo is all macro though. And you can go ahead and try that sword ar start, just gonna get burned or lighted up.