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Started by: Lgolos | Replies: 158,197 | Views: 12,277,685 | Sticky

S.A.

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Apr 11, 2017 6:39 AM #1478720
You've gotta take it easy sometimes though, good for the health.
Scarecrow
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Apr 12, 2017 7:32 AM #1478741
Quote from Vorpal
Don't worry though guys, legalization is an inevitability once our corrupt government realizes they can make a shit ton of money.


The question is whether or not that shitton of money outweighs the shitton of money provided by lobbyists who are against legalization (ie. from pharmaceutical corporations, private prisons, etc).

I'm personally an advocate of complete decriminalization of all drugs, but I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.
Cook

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Apr 13, 2017 12:22 AM #1478770
ayyyy lmao
Vorpal
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Apr 13, 2017 4:24 AM #1478773
Yooo Scarecrow and Cook, what's good.

Yeah man I wish they would decriminalize drugs considering how hardcore what big pharma gives us can be. The line is so blurry it's almost indistinguishable.
Scarecrow
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Apr 13, 2017 9:30 AM #1478779
I don't believe there is a line. Drugs are drugs. Medicines are drugs. Poisons are drugs. Toxic substances are drugs. Some minerals are drugs. Hell, if you break them down enough even foods are just a bunch of different drugs smooshed together to make something edible. It's just variations in dosage and usage.
Raptor
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Apr 13, 2017 2:49 PM #1478786
Quote from Scarecrow
The question is whether or not that shitton of money outweighs the shitton of money provided by lobbyists who are against legalization (ie. from pharmaceutical corporations, private prisons, etc).

I'm personally an advocate of complete decriminalization of all drugs, but I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

All drugs?
Alphaeus
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Apr 13, 2017 6:28 PM #1478794
All drugs will NEVER be legalized. Hate to burst your bubble, but that won't happen. Not even all recreational. Marijuana might get there, but that's only because it is relatively harmless as far as most drugs go. Opium might be considered some time in the far future, perhaps, but that's it.
Vorpal
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Apr 13, 2017 10:29 PM #1478809
Why not?

Nothing is stopping me from huffing paint in public right now. Mind you the people against marijuana classified the shit on the same tier as heroin arbitrarily, so I can't trust the false authorities making the drug laws.
Also what about how we're not actually stopping that many people from doing drugs, if we learned anything from the last 100 years of experimental drug prohibition. Which has lead to unprecidented crime, corruption and our obvious failure to stop the useage of drugs or their availability to children.

The drug prohibitions we're experiencing now are essentially an experiment rather than a solid proven fact to improve society, it's quite debateable that it's actually harming as much as it's helping.

The American people want drugs, and they'll continue to purchase drugs, illegal or not.
Scarecrow
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Apr 14, 2017 6:51 AM #1478830
Quote from Raptor
All drugs?


Without exception.

I believe that the worst drugs like methamphetamine are only used because access to cleaner, less harmful substances has been restricted so much. Drug addiction and abuse should be treated a medical issue. The threat of imprisonment isn't going to stop the people who are at risk of falling into a downward spiral from drug use, and actually imprisoning such people only alienates them from what little support they have left, making it harder for any kind of recovery to occur. Deaths from drugs that are easy to overdose on like heroin could be greatly reduced with medically supervised injection sites with sterile supplies, which could also provide support, information and better options.

Quote from Alphaeus
All drugs will NEVER be legalized. Hate to burst your bubble, but that won't happen. Not even all recreational. Marijuana might get there, but that's only because it is relatively harmless as far as most drugs go. Opium might be considered some time in the far future, perhaps, but that's it.


To be clear, I said "decriminalized", not "legalized, encouraged, and sold at every milk bar".

In any case, you're obviously not keeping up with research. MDMA, LSD, psilocybin, and ibogaine in particular all have ongoing research and demonstrable medical uses. There's plenty of others with great potential, such as cocaine, salvia divinorum, and dimethyltryptamine. MDMA especially is not far behind marijuana in terms of decriminalization. Opium though... seems a long way off to me. There's too much of a monopoly on opioid painkillers for that to happen any time soon, not to mention the recent crack down on the so-called "opioid epidemic".

Incidentally, the only reason such substances haven't been proven to have medical benefits sooner is the fact that research slows to a crawl when a substance is made illegal - and I suspect this was probably a big part of why they were made illegal in the first place (ie. to eliminate naturally grown competitors to pharmaceutical drugs). Even now that things are actually getting done, progress is slow, so as I said I don't think complete decriminalization is going to happen any time soon.

However we're slowly moving in that direction: first made available for medical use, then eventually decriminalized once people realize it isn't so bad.
Raptor
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Apr 14, 2017 12:27 PM #1478832
Quote from Scarecrow
Without exception.

I believe that the worst drugs like methamphetamine are only used because access to cleaner, less harmful substances has been restricted so much. Drug addiction and abuse should be treated a medical issue. The threat of imprisonment isn't going to stop the people who are at risk of falling into a downward spiral from drug use, and actually imprisoning such people only alienates them from what little support they have left, making it harder for any kind of recovery to occur. Deaths from drugs that are easy to overdose on like heroin could be greatly reduced with medically supervised injection sites with sterile supplies, which could also provide support, information and better options.

That's an awfully optimistic view.
Scarecrow
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Apr 14, 2017 1:55 PM #1478834
Quote from Raptor
That's an awfully optimistic view.


By decriminalizing drugs, resources are freed up to improve public health and education programs, and users can stop being demonized so that they can actually get the help they need. This is not some fairy tale idea I've invented, it's something that's been tried and proven in practice: https://news.vice.com/article/ungass-portugal-what-happened-after-decriminalization-drugs-weed-to-heroin
Alphaeus
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Apr 14, 2017 6:11 PM #1478846
Medical usage of drugs is a whole different ball game. I mean, when I was running as a paramed 99% of the drugs I carried could not have been used by civilians. There are levels of legalization/decriminalization, in other words. I don't think anything should be kept out of the medical field if it produces good results with minimal side-effects (which is more than can be said for most medical drugs).

That said, I'm wasn't stating my personal opinion.

I personally think it makes sense to legalize MOST drugs (yes, meth and whatnot should stay illegal because they are just so incredibly harmful even to third parties). If you make it legal, you can regulate it. You can't "regulate" illegal drugs -- that philosophy is errant. I mean, we've got the Prohibition as evidence of this. OOO, alcohol was banned (actually I think it was hard liquor, but still). Enter speak-easies and moonshine and bootleggers. Prohibition get's lifted, all those vanish (with the exception of moonshine :P), and what remains we can actually regulate. Alcoholism is now, although widespread, at least manageable.

Honestly, illegal or not I don't know many people who have not had contact with/used drugs at some point, which is proof of how the politics are wrong on this. Legalize it, then regulate it. And reap a nice profit on the side. Also, doing this with the top drugs like cocaine and marijuana and whatnot would eviscerate the cartels main cash-goods. By eviscerating the cartels, crime (and illegal immigration, tbh) would drop, particularly that which stems from gangs (crime in general might not be heavily impacted, but this area of crime would be dealt a huge blow).

All that said, I still stand by what I said earlier. No matter what you and I say, the general public opinion hasn't changed enough to bring something like this to pass. It won't happen. Maybe in a few generations, but not yet. At least not from what I can see. There is SOOO much more that grabs the news and the political timesheets.

Also, I'm speaking as an American. I cannot speak for the status of other countries, since we are typically somewhat slow on the draw when it comes to policies like this.
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Apr 14, 2017 7:19 PM #1478848
Quote from Alphaeus
Medical usage of drugs is a whole different ball game. I mean, when I was running as a paramed 99% of the drugs I carried could not have been used by civilians. There are levels of legalization/decriminalization, in other words. I don't think anything should be kept out of the medical field if it produces good results with minimal side-effects (which is more than can be said for most medical drugs).
This seems like an awfully different change of tone from your previous post, where you're "bursting" Scarecrows "bubble."

Quote from Alphaeus
That said, I'm wasn't stating my personal opinion.

Oh okay, now it all makes sense...you're back-peddling. Weird I really got the feeling from your first post that you were serious.

Quote from Alphaeus
I personally think it makes sense to legalize MOST drugs (yes, meth and whatnot should stay illegal because they are just so incredibly harmful even to third parties). If you make it legal, you can regulate it. You can't "regulate" illegal drugs -- that philosophy is errant. I mean, we've got the Prohibition as evidence of this. OOO, alcohol was banned (actually I think it was hard liquor, but still). Enter speak-easies and moonshine and bootleggers. Prohibition get's lifted, all those vanish (with the exception of moonshine :P), and what remains we can actually regulate. Alcoholism is now, although widespread, at least manageable.

Honestly, illegal or not I don't know many people who have not had contact with/used drugs at some point, which is proof of how the politics are wrong on this. Legalize it, then regulate it. And reap a nice profit on the side. Also, doing this with the top drugs like cocaine and marijuana and whatnot would eviscerate the cartels main cash-goods. By eviscerating the cartels, crime (and illegal immigration, tbh) would drop, particularly that which stems from gangs (crime in general might not be heavily impacted, but this area of crime would be dealt a huge blow).

All that said, I still stand by what I said earlier. No matter what you and I say, the general public opinion hasn't changed enough to bring something like this to pass. It won't happen. Maybe in a few generations, but not yet. At least not from what I can see. There is SOOO much more that grabs the news and the political timesheets.

Also, I'm speaking as an American. I cannot speak for the status of other countries, since we are typically somewhat slow on the draw when it comes to policies like this.

I feel like you're making points that seem obvious to anyone who is aware of the hypocrisy of our current drug laws, but following it up by essentially saying ignorant people are scared of what might happen.

Yeah people thought society would crumble when they legalized marijuana in colorado, but turned out they were all hypochondriacs. I'm unwilling to tolerate or accept the slowing of logical progress to appease the consensus of the ignorant masses. Nor am I willing to accept said ignorance merely because it's a consensus.

You went from saying it'll NEVER happen, to now it makes sense to you. Policies change all the time, especially when people are allowed to be open minded and actually educate themselves on the facts. If your opinion on it changed that quick, it shouldn't be that farfetched that others can be convinced...even then the old timers who are vehemently against all drugs because they were told to be and no other reasons are going to be dead soon.

So it's up to us, the open minded youth who will inherit this earth to make the correct decisions relating to these drugs to improve the world for those who come after us. I'd rather do this through people who've done their research and know what they're talking about, like scarecrow, rather than acquiesce to fears of ignorant people who probably couldn't figure out the carb on a run of the mill pipe.
Scarecrow
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Apr 15, 2017 9:40 AM #1478862
Quote from Alphaeus
I personally think it makes sense to legalize MOST drugs (yes, meth and whatnot should stay illegal because they are just so incredibly harmful even to third parties). If you make it legal, you can regulate it. You can't "regulate" illegal drugs -- that philosophy is errant. I mean, we've got the Prohibition as evidence of this. OOO, alcohol was banned (actually I think it was hard liquor, but still). Enter speak-easies and moonshine and bootleggers. Prohibition get's lifted, all those vanish (with the exception of moonshine :P), and what remains we can actually regulate. Alcoholism is now, although widespread, at least manageable.

Honestly, illegal or not I don't know many people who have not had contact with/used drugs at some point, which is proof of how the politics are wrong on this. Legalize it, then regulate it. And reap a nice profit on the side. Also, doing this with the top drugs like cocaine and marijuana and whatnot would eviscerate the cartels main cash-goods. By eviscerating the cartels, crime (and illegal immigration, tbh) would drop, particularly that which stems from gangs (crime in general might not be heavily impacted, but this area of crime would be dealt a huge blow).


I'm all for the eventual legalization of most drugs too, but I do agree that it's potentially a risky idea to simply legalize everything. I don't know if singling out a few particular drugs to remain illegal is the way to do it, though - it might draw people to them out of curiosity. Exactly how to handle that particular can of worms is entirely up for debate though - as I said earlier, I was only talking about decriminalization earlier. I personally think things would probably work themselves out after a while even if everything were legal, since:

Quote from Scarecrow
I believe that the worst drugs like methamphetamine are only used because access to cleaner, less harmful substances has been restricted so much.


Incidentally, alcohol also happens to be one of the worst drugs in my opinion. Like meth, I think its use would also decline rapidly if access to safer drugs were easier.

Quote from Alphaeus
All that said, I still stand by what I said earlier. No matter what you and I say, the general public opinion hasn't changed enough to bring something like this to pass. It won't happen. Maybe in a few generations, but not yet. At least not from what I can see. There is SOOO much more that grabs the news and the political timesheets.

Also, I'm speaking as an American. I cannot speak for the status of other countries, since we are typically somewhat slow on the draw when it comes to policies like this.


I think blanket decriminalization probably won't happen any time soon, but there's definitely slow and steady progress. What makes you think the way things unfold will be any different from the way marijuana's been progressing?

After years of being illegal, research finally gets done -> Proven to have medical benefits -> Legal for medical use -> Public opinion improves as people realize that you don't become hitler by using it -> Decriminalization -> People realize it's actually pretty good -> Possibility of legalization

Quote from Vorpal
the old timers who are vehemently against all drugs because they were told to be and no other reasons are going to be dead soon.


I cannot understate the importance of this point. Ignorance isn't going to disappear overnight considering the amount of misinformation people have been fed, but the death of people like this idiot will do great things for humanity.
Alphaeus
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Apr 15, 2017 3:02 PM #1478872
@Vorp. I'm not backpedaling. I'm voicing the difference between an objective statement of fact (this ain't happening soon) and my own opinion (It makes sense). No position change. From what I read before my first post I got the feeling (wrongly) that Scarecrow was saying this would happen soon, and responded accordingly (bursting the bubble).

ANYHOW...

Yes, I think this will be a "one-step-at-a-time" process. Very tiny steps, but I think eventually there will be "acquired norms" that will be more and more accepting each generation.

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