Quote from nutsophast

Yes you are top ten, and you have experience with 500 games.

Early game I find fire start unreliable because of range disadvantages. If the fire start is somehow viable EvO, can someone tell me because I don't know how it's viable. For air start, getting a CA just shuts them down, CA = 300 gold, Air = 400 gold. The only good thing is three earth start, which isn't even an aggresive start. I'm ranked fairly high and I've lost to people just getting lots of swords and rushing my miners, because with a large number of swords, your castle air won't do anything.

When I say turtling I mean it mid-game. Elementals do have lag, but that doesn't give them an advantage xD. Lag just makes it hard for both players.

Now for infernos, I wouldn't say that it's over-centralizing the media. Elementals aren't used that much anyway. But you guys are correct. Cast meteors and archers are either dead or gone. But without it, archers are free to just run around and rip your whole army to shreads. I wouldn't nerf the spell's stats, maybe increase meteor cost? Because this is the only thing that elementals have to counter archers.

Without meteors I don't know any other method to counter archers, maybe I'm just stupid. You mind telling me any other way to counter? I've tested many things and I found meteors to be the best.

fire start is unreliable if the micro is bad enough. With the burn damage support, and also earth unit tank, usually two swords + one archer lose to one fire + one earth, and all order units are forced to garrison after a few hits from fire. Push order player with fire bit by bit and kill a few miners, then it is an easy gg. The only two players who I can see that can counter fire start well are jerrytt and miscrits due to their good micro.
Range disadvantage is not really a problem due to health difference and damage difference. If ele player is smart enough, he should keep the fire behind and remain a fixed distance to prevent archer kiting.

And I honestly laugh when I see "Elementals do have lag, but that doesn't give them an advantage "
Also, elementals do not have lag, just the replays lag. If there is lag during the game, then is the player's internet problem.
I found the joke quite funny when I saw someone said "Lag makes hard for both players, so I won fairly even 1500 ping lag"

The point is, order does not allow any single mistake or delay in early game, while elemental can tank more than 10 hits with earth and fire in early game.
That means if there is delay, if the early archer of order got caught by simply earths, or die from two hits of fire, then auto-gg . Not even a chance to win.
Yes,Lag makes it hard for both players, but the one who plays order is 10 times harder and vulnerable to lag in the early game.
Archers need much more kiting and micro than fire and airs, while like 1/3 health of fire and air. Swords have low health compared with charrog and disposable upgraded scorpions.

For the mid-game you said, if elemental cannot win within 6 mins, basically the ele player easily dies. Early game with either tree ma ss or charrog rush, or even an early tower spawn simply rekts order easily.

For inferno, I am not sure about others, but I used it almost every game against top order player, and it is no doubt strong caster. But considering high cost of inferno, I think inferno is fine with his nice ability

Counter archers are not a big deal in the early game, earth rush and fire shuts down any archers. The proper way to stop archer is to kill one by one before more are built. Two trees can instant kill archer, charrog rush , cycloid spell. and scorpions upgraded poison. All these easily deal with archers.

Quote from mysterybat

fire start is unreliable if the micro is bad enough. With the burn damage support, and also earth unit tank, usually two swords + one archer lose to one fire + one earth, and all order units are forced to garrison after a few hits from fire. Push order player with fire bit by bit and kill a few miners, then it is an easy gg. The only two players who I can see that can counter fire start well are jerrytt and miscrits due to their good micro.
Range disadvantage is not really a problem due to health difference and damage difference. If ele player is smart enough, he should keep the fire behind and remain a fixed distance to prevent archer kiting.

And I honestly laugh when I see "Elementals do have lag, but that doesn't give them an advantage "
Also, elementals do not have lag, just the replays lag. If there is lag during the game, then is the player's internet problem.
I found the joke quite funny when I saw someone said "Lag makes hard for both players, so I won fairly even 1500 ping lag"

The point is, order does not allow any single mistake or delay in early game, while elemental can tank more than 10 hits with earth and fire in early game.
That means if there is delay, if the early archer of order got caught by simply earths, or die from two hits of fire, then auto-gg . Not even a chance to win.
Yes,Lag makes it hard for both players, but the one who plays order is 10 times harder and vulnerable to lag in the early game.
Archers need much more kiting and micro than fire and airs, while like 1/3 health of fire and air. Swords have low health compared with charrog and disposable upgraded scorpions.

For the mid-game you said, if elemental cannot win within 6 mins, basically the ele player easily dies. Early game with either tree ma ss or charrog rush, or even an early tower spawn simply rekts order easily.

For inferno, I am not sure about others, but I used it almost every game against top order player, and it is no doubt strong caster. But considering high cost of inferno, I think inferno is fine with his nice ability

Counter archers are not a big deal in the early game, earth rush and fire shuts down any archers. The proper way to stop archer is to kill one by one before more are built. Two trees can instant kill archer, charrog rush , cycloid spell. and scorpions upgraded poison. All these easily deal with archers.

...If there's lag when you lost, you can't just say," Oh I lost because of lag." If there's lag, it will affect both players. That means both of them will experience delay, not just one player having delay and the other not having any delay.

Anyway back on topic, maybe fire start works for you, I don't know. But from my experience, the archer will just kite my earth, so when I pull it back, it'll be wounded. By the time I reach their base so they don't have room to kite, they have a stronger tank, so I have to retreat. Then they forward kite. I push them back with more tank, but when I reach their base again, they either have a CA or their tanks (that were garrisoned from burn) will come out and then outnumber me.

That's my experience, however, if you can pull it off, I'd like to see a replay. You are top ten after all.

On the subject of infernos, like pumu said they are vulnerable to shinobi. I get how you might have a problem running in archers since they get eliminated. But that's the role of infernos, area control.

I could say magikill electric wall is too good at what it does. It has tons of damage and it destroys armoured units. Or poison spray, it does what meteors do except with longer range and less risk. If your enemy has a magikill you change tactics to kill it right? You don't just sit there saying it's broken. Again, spears with merics + magikill can stop any elemental units since infernos doesn't instantly kill them.

Note that this isn't directed to one person.

Quote from nutsophast

...If there's lag when you lost, you can't just say," Oh I lost because of lag." If there's lag, it will affect both players. That means both of them will experience delay, not just one player having delay and the other not having any delay.

Short maps OvE it hurts order a lot more under the same lag.

Maybe, but I just hate how everyone's always saying that they lost to lag. Lag, isn't the reason you lose, it's your skill or mistakes you made. Also mystery and I fought in EvE when he claimed that lag was the reason he lost. And that's what we're talking about.

Quote from nutsophast

Maybe, but I just hate how everyone's always saying that they lost to lag. Lag, isn't the reason you lose, it's your skill or mistakes you made. Also mystery and I fought in EvE when he claimed that lag was the reason he lost. And that's what we're talking about.

So you think whenever a player lose, he made mistakes and his skill sucked?
Or 2500 player lose to a 1500 in lag, his skills suck ?

And I see this is the reason how top ranked players lose in lag, and all effort went down into the drain and forced to quit. Let alone to mention how many players quit this game due to this fact.
It is just like someone who is laggy and win a player much higher than him. At that moment he enjoys the win and thinks how good himself is, and the top player sucks.

I really do not see the point how an order player sucks just simply because he loses his first archer or eco due to lag .

Also I am not talking about my matches with you.

It is very disgusting when I see elemental players said "elemental has no problems" , " elemental does not need nerf" , "elemental has no advantage in lag" , while the majority players are order players.
Elemental has many flaws, not only nerf, buff is needed. But the main point is to make correct nerf and buff.

I play all three empires for more than half year, and if I really have time to play more, I can simply use elemental and exploit the advantage. I am quite sure i can get to 2700 no problem. But that is not the thing I want.
I am not saying how good I am . But what I mean is, think about the whole community is what we should do. If we think for our own sake, then it is just to ruin this game.

I put a doubt on you whether you know how the game system works. The only start unit for order players in short maps are swords and archers, which have low health and low damage. In contrast, earth and fire as the start units of elemental, can tank way more damage and allow much more mistakes.
Each sword of order side dies and it counts as a lose. But for elemental, each earth has low health can simply retreat to base and convert to miners and boost eco.
By the time an order player made a CA, he almost lose.

Besides, I don't want to repeat once more. But I am interested to see how you can play as order, bring out those so-called nice units like magkills,merics and spear in OvE. For me, I never did it successfully even once to bring out magkill meric spear in OvE when I faced 2k+ player.

Quote from nutsophast

Maybe, but I just hate how everyone's always saying that they lost to lag. Lag, isn't the reason you lose, it's your skill or mistakes you made. Also mystery and I fought in EvE when he claimed that lag was the reason he lost. And that's what we're talking about.

No. Just no.

Sometimes you genuinely lose to something out of your control and skill has nothing to do with it. I've lost games to random lag spikes just before I needed to micro something important and I've lost plenty to OvE for the same reason. You literally can't accommodate for unpredictable lag, and short maps OvE that's a death sentence.

No amount of skill can handle ping lag at the wrong moment. There comes a point when you just can't make the micro ahead of time to accommodate for delay.

@mystery If you can't bring out a turtle, your tactics may be flawed. Also when a player loses, I said skills OR mistakes. Lag may be a partial reason but it's dumb to say that's the entire reason. Getting a CA doesn't mean you lose.

Sorry if I was embarrassing you, I thought that's what we're talking about. I didn't mean to insult you, besides, what do you expect from EvE? Elementals lag, EvE makes it worse. Maybe you get disgusted when people say ele doesn't need nerf. But I get disgusted when people just say " Lag is the reason you win." " Nice lag," "lag" etc.

However this lag talk isn't getting us anywhere, so let's just stop.

@skele That happens, it's just that every time I beat someone 2k+ they always say " lag " which I get quite disgusted by. Either way, laggy or not laggy, this is an ele thread, so I'll stop.

Quote from nutsophast

@mystery If you can't bring out a turtle, your tactics may be flawed. Also when a player loses, I said skills OR mistakes. Lag may be a partial reason but it's dumb to say that's the entire reason. Getting a CA doesn't mean you lose.

Sorry if I was embarrassing you, I thought that's what we're talking about. I didn't mean to insult you, besides, what do you expect from EvE? Elementals lag, EvE makes it worse. Maybe you get disgusted when people say ele doesn't need nerf. But I get disgusted when people just say " Lag is the reason you win." " Nice lag," "lag" etc.

However this lag talk isn't getting us anywhere, so let's just stop.

@skele That happens, it's just that every time I beat someone 2k+ they always say " lag " which I get quite disgusted by. Either way, laggy or not laggy, this is an ele thread, so I'll stop.

Bring out turtle in short? nuto , yes my tactic is flawed.
PLZ SHOW ME how you can bring out YOUR PERFECT TURTLE WITH MAGKILL in short map so that I can learn from top player like you.

Getting a CA doesn't mean a lose , yes, but I did not see more than three players who can win OvE in short map with CA.

Also, if order empire is forced to turtle in every game while elemental has the right to control the centre in every game, I don't see how "fair" it is.

I did not mean to say "lag is the reason you win" , but at least I never consider any lag games as legit games . And not even a "gg" .
I would just say the lag games were simply waste of time and suck.

And I honestly think if every player you meet say "lag" in front of you, then you should look at yourself.

Anyway, the main issue I am talking is advantage of ele against order in lag, so unless you play as order and win most OvE games, otherwise I guess it is not suitable for you to say how "fair" it is.

Are you kidding me? I conceded after this turned into an arguement about lag. Honestly though, you are a very persistent, good day.

Quote from nutsophast

Are you kidding me? I conceded after this turned into an arguement about lag. Honestly though, you are a very persistent, good day.

no , what I want is just ask to see how you support your arguement with evidence.

Since this is the thread about how ele revisited, based on how you claim about "order turtle" and "non-existent advantage of lag" , this is just a discussion

If you don't want to talk, or you do not have the ability to prove, that is fine.

Quote from nutsophast

@skele That happens, it's just that every time I beat someone 2k+ they always say " lag " which I get quite disgusted by. Either way, laggy or not laggy, this is an ele thread, so I'll stop.

This is an ele thread,

and insta gg when ele lags is a relevant problem here.

I don't understand what you're saying, gg? What I meant, in " this is an ele thread," was that this was turning more into a lag thread than an ele thread.

@mystery Well it was turning into an argument more than a discussion. When I said that you were persistent maybe that was the wrong word. Even when I said let's stop, you were getting pretty mad. I concede however, you won. You have more solid points, I'm not really making any sense (by the way I am serious).

Well he is referring to the fact that in short maps both of the main starts go in favor of elementals when lag appears, due to the fact that order has to use significantly more micro than elementals does. Fires become much more potent when their short range cant be used and earths are much more dangerous when you cant dodge around them. So yes, lag should be discussed here.

I see, thanks for clearing it up jerry. So short maps EvO + lag = higher chance for ele player to win. On longer maps though, if the game gets into the stage of mid-game, I don't think order has much excuse about lag though.

The thing is, when I beat people in EvE or OvO, they still complain about lag, even though as order I have to do more micro (early-game) and as elementals against another ele player, lag won't be too much of a problem.

Also, people say "lag" at the end of the game or when they're losing, which sort of proves that they are trying to cover up the fact that they lost because of micro/macro mistakes, bad tactics etc. I also notice that when I think it lags, the opponent usually says that it's lagging when they have time to type. Otherwise they don't say anything, I beat them, and then they complain.

I don't know if we're done with the short map subject, if not, I await a reply.

While I mostly agree, when on tilt someone will notice even the slightest bit of annoying lag much more than when they're in a better mindset to be playing, thus, those losing will notice lag much more.