Before I prepare any form of argument, I have to ask, are you a member of PETA?

I love animals, was raised with them my whole life. I agree that farms are pumping too many hormones into our meats. But I'm not going to give up eating meat, because it pleases me.

Quote from Jutsu

I love animals, was raised with them my whole life. I agree that farms are pumping too many hormones into our meats. But I'm not going to give up eating meat, because it pleases me.

Not patronising you for eating meat, but your justification for eating it (regarding this specific thread) is probably the universal model for anyone who might enjoy cruelty. Anyone who is cruel to an animal or maybe someone who is a serial killer can justify themselves by saying it pleases them.

LOL this post is just inviting argument and debate.

EDIT: @Sea Beast. If you're speaking solely about cruelty in humans feeding off of animals, then no. I disagree, an animal would eat a human just the same. (If it's a predator)
Most creatures live off of each other. It's the cycle of life and a natural thing. If you're right about the animal self awareness thing, then isn't a spider trapping multiple flies in its web the same thing as humans stockpiling livestock?

However I agree that humans as the dominant species has definitely perverted the natural cycle of life. No other creature breeds it's food. We're the only ones.
Take this into consideration though, it's still considered a form of farming. The same happens with plant based food. They're bred and grown. If we as the dominant species don't do it, the world today wouldn't have enough food (it already doesn't) and far less people, especially non meat eaters would have a higher chance of starving. People's instincts would far more likely drive them to hunt or turn to canabilism than to keep scavenging fofor edible plant food. Especially in regions unsuited for non GM crops. Farming (of both plants and animals) and imports and exports are connected. If we don't breed resources there won't be an abundance to share with other countries(that may be lacking these resources.) Not eating meat in these conditions will most likely cause malnutrition in your body. It's actually more harmful to Vegans.

The only way to stop the cruelty in animal farming is to stop farming altogether, but note that without a mass meat production source, people will look for meat elsewhere. They'll most likely still hunt and gather livestock for farming, but on a subsistence level. My big argument here is that humanity is what causes cruelty. Our own logic will tell us that the other creatures are lesser beings, that we MUST be dominant and that we deserve to live with the luxury of having freedom as well as a meal, while whatever creature we're eating does not. This is basically selfish, which only humans are capable of being.

We lose our cruelty and sinful ways when we lose our humanity (or decide to live every part of our life according to a higher power with a higher comprehension than us, he placed everything on this Earth and he knows how it can be sustained without compromising the integrity of nature's life cycle). Animals aren't really capable of cruelty. They just follow instinct. Like I said, we're the only species that farms or breeds it's food outside of the cycle of nature or life. We invented the system of caging, processing and creating profit from using another creature, taking its free life from it in the process.

Quote from Captainalien72

Not patronising you for eating meat, but your justification for eating it (regarding this specific thread) is probably the universal model for anyone who might enjoy cruelty. Anyone who is cruel to an animal or maybe someone who is a serial killer can justify themselves by saying it pleases them.

LOL this post is just inviting argument and debate.

I'm not a serial killer, nor am I cruel to animals by osmosis.

I'm an omnivore.

Quote from Azure Kite

Before I prepare any form of argument, I have to ask, are you a member of PETA?

No I am not. My position on this debate is totally unbiased.

@Sea Beast I edited my last post.

Quote from Captainalien72

Not patronising you for eating meat, but your justification for eating it (regarding this specific thread) is probably the universal model for anyone who might enjoy cruelty. Anyone who is cruel to an animal or maybe someone who is a serial killer can justify themselves by saying it pleases them.

LOL this post is just inviting argument and debate.

EDIT: @Sea Beast. If you're speaking solely about cruelty in humans feeding off of animals, then no. I disagree, an animal would eat a human just the same. (If it's a predator)
Most creatures live off of each other. It's the cycle of life and a natural thing. If you're right about the animal self awareness thing, then isn't a spider trapping multiple flies in its web the same thing as humans stockpiling livestock?

However I agree that humans as the dominant species has definitely perverted the natural cycle of life. No other creature breeds it's food. We're the only ones.
Take this into consideration though, it's still considered a form of farming. The same happens with plant based food. They're bred and grown. If we as the dominant species don't do it, the world today wouldn't have enough food (it already doesn't) and far less people, especially non meat eaters would have a higher chance of starving. People's instincts would far more likely drive them to hunt or turn to canabilism than to keep scavenging fofor edible plant food. Especially in regions unsuited for non GM crops. Farming (of both plants and animals) and imports and exports are connected. If we don't breed resources there won't be an abundance to share with other countries(that may be lacking these resources.) Not eating meat in these conditions will most likely cause malnutrition in your body. It's actually more harmful to Vegans.

The only way to stop the cruelty in animal farming is to stop farming altogether, but note that without a mass meat production source, people will look for meat elsewhere. They'll most likely still hunt and gather livestock for farming, but on a subsistence level. My big argument here is that humanity is what causes cruelty. Our own logic will tell us that the other creatures are lesser beings, that we MUST be dominant and that we deserve to live with the luxury of having freedom as well as a meal, while whatever creature we're eating does not. This is basically selfish, which only humans are capable of being.

We lose our cruelty and sinful ways when we lose our humanity (or decide to live every part of our life according to a higher power with a higher comprehension than us, he placed everything on this Earth and he knows how it can be sustained without compromising the integrity of nature's life cycle). Animals aren't really capable of cruelty. They just follow instinct. Like I said, we're the only species that farms or breeds it's food outside of the cycle of nature or life. We invented the system of caging, processing and creating profit from using another creature, taking its free life from it in the process.

Yes, that is a good point, but at the same time, morality is a human concept. Humans are the ones who went out and decided it was wrong in the first place. Farming went from what it was, to what it is now because efficiency is a very important thing in the industry. If you could produce twice as much food, and make twice as much money, at the cost of someone else, who isn't even human. The meat industry manages to feed millions and millions of people everyday. Humans NEED to eat meat. I do favor eating meat and killing other animals to receive it. Were only a part of nature, and nature can be cruel. This could even be a natural destiny of the human race, we were created by nature, so maybe it's just a natural trait of our species to take as much advantage of our surroundings as possible.

Of course it's cruel. However, this is how life works: Humans> any other animal, therefore we are at the top of the 'Food Chain' . As far as my memory goes only chimpanzees, dolphins, and magpies are have 'self-awareness', we don't eat them. It may look cruel, but it's needed for our survival. To be honest, most of them wouldn't even be born without thoes 'cruel factories', nature is far more cruel then us. You know how nature works right? The spicie on the top are like the king; without anyone else to oppose them.

*Why would you say thoes factories are cruel and don't you say that for example: the Lions are cruel for killing other animals and eating them? Because it's natural and they do it to survive? Well, the same goes for us. ( Although we wouldn't need to go that far if we weren't so greedy in the first place)

It is cruel, however, compulsory for our survival.

Quote from Captainalien72

If you're saying animals don't have morals or a distinction between right and wrong, yes. In that sense you're right. But it doesn't mean they can't do good. I've seen acts of compassion carried out by animals towards one another. Also they can do bad but its usually instinct driven. Humans have morals and can choose to do the wrong thing. Human rights actually existing and predating animal rights proves my point made in my previous post(Humans recognising themselves as more important). Only humanity can recognize these rights and choose to violate them. Animals don't choose it consciously. By the way, your statement is a little bit contradictory. If animals have no sense of right or wrong then surely they are not aware of what they're doing or the ramifications of what they're doing, more appropriately, therefore they cannot have a sense of self awareness and regard what is being done to them by humans as wrong. Animal and Human rights alike were conceptualised by humans, so is there really a double standard then as you said in your first post? Your statement suggests that animals recognise no morality issue in animal farming technically makes them okay with it.

Edit: Oh and nature isn't cruel. Even in situations where perhaps parents abandon infants, it's because there is no physical way for them to keep supporting the infant. People can easily abandon a child and justify it by saying there are social consequences (e.g aborting because of parents or community) or financial consequences. A bird would only abandon it's checks under a circumstance of a flood washing it's nest away or someone else taking its chick away or a snake squeezing on it's unhatched eggs. Cruelty itself is relative and only recognised by humans. If a volcano isn't considered cruelty by nature then why is any other part of nature's life cycle cruel?

Nature can be cruel because disease and viruses have wiped entire regions of not only humans but countless different species, and viruses aren't even considered a life form.

Animals who were born in the slaughterhouse and died in the slaughterhouse wouldn't have much of a sense of right and wrong. They never experienced any kind of alternative to that life. Although they can sense that what they are experiencing is something of extreme discomfort. One way to look at it is, life is a chemical reaction, just extremely complex. The meat industry in a way is using life to our advantage, in order to survive. The only reason there is a moral conflict is because we ourselves are animals, and if it wasn't for that identity, we wouldn't have sympathy for them.

Animals kill other animals for food, why are we so bad because we've evolved and become better and more efficient at it

Quote from Drone

Animals kill other animals for food, why are we so bad because we've evolved and become better and more efficient at it

It's not just that, we've taken over the entire ecosystem, and we've made our own artificial environment for farm animals. We've deprived them of even a fighting chance against being eaten by us (their predator). Being more efficient at killing animals is basically using a rifle to hunt for game instead of spears. Now it's on a whole other level, because now were in total control of their environment, what they eat, where they go, when they die, basically depriving them of free will

I do think it's cruel, and I do think it isn't absolutely necessary and there are possible ways around it.

That being said, it's done more good than bad, and while I do like animals, I don't believe the majority have any of what we can call feelings. But I guess the biggest part of this is just the fact that I don't care enough (to put it bluntly) and don't think it's implications are anything to be concerned about, and pondering about feelings is just over thinking the situation.

I may elucidate on this later, but that's essentially how I feel.

I don't like the way that they treat the animals then kill them but at the same time, their meat are high in protein and is necessary for our bodies' development. I don't think it's a bad thing but they could've at least treat them a little better.