How do we attack miner wall specifically? This is pertaining to, for example, spearton rushing and facing 6 speartons in front of the wall. Having to fight these speartons can ruin the rush right away. How do we go straight for the wall and run in?

P.S. Sometimes speartons also continue running after reaching wall instead of attacking and this AI NEEDS to be fixed. Ex. If we click to a position in their base they will run towards it against the wall rather than attack the wall.

Thanks

For the first one, it's a bug.

For the second one, well, let's use an example, because I'm not good at explaining things.
So lets say you have a bunch of swordwraths and he has a spearton. To attack him, you need to click on the spear. But, if you click the area behind the spearton, the swordwraths will ignore the spearton and head to the place you've clicked. The same mechanic applies to the miner wall, but instead they're blocked by the wall.

I believe you mixed up the two so you are saying the speartons running (even without enemy forces blocking) is a bug (makes sense).

For the other part basically what we're referring to is when the opponent has speartons with shield wall + shield bash (also applies for any other unit right in front of miner wall) - how do we target the wall rather than units blocking it? Sometimes units actually stand on wall and block it which is understandable but if they are in front of it how do we attack the wall directly?

This is important because imagine were we one of the attacking forces, we would be able to run past and attack the wall just like we can run past units to attack other units - but it seems the wall doesn't get attacked in same way as units (Ex. We click on a unit to attack it - we attack it) should be same with miner wall - we click to attack it and we attack it.

No, I didn't mix up the two. When speartons stand in front of the miner wall, it becomes untargetable by units.

Speartons will instead, tank for the walls, you will have to get rid of the speartons first if you would like to destroy the wall

This is a bug and must be patched. Both issues here are bugs, actually. The right thing to do is make it so units can directly attack wall. Below are the reasons why this change must take place (amongst potential others):

1. The wall is no different from any other object in the game. It is the same as a unit except with no "soul". It must be able to be attacked just like anything else. This will make the game more realistic.

2. This is in no way OP - given that there are numerous ways already to stop this from happening. First, the player must scout to find out and see there are walls in the first place. Without scouting, we cannot see and therefore cannot directly attack walls without seeing them first.

3. Herein lies the answer to the second question's missing factor: So what? We can just run up to wall and click to attack it.

No - we can't if opponent uses proper defence techniques. Instead of placing units in front of wall (particularly, speartons with shield bash), they can place all units directly on wall which will make it harder for attacker to select to attack wall as units are blocking. Along with shield bash this will continue to defend attacks albeit much harder than before.

*The wall is meant to delay units from attacking and right now it is bugged in that units cannot attack it to prevent this delay.*

*The wall is not meant to be permanent. If units rush and attack walls and retreat, they can be rebuilt. That is the point.*

Edit - Forgot other important reason: Many units have stun capabilities as well which prevent units from advancing and/or attacking. These can be used to prevent units from reaching wall to attack it.

Ex. Giants, spears have stun+knockback (and respective units in other empires). Combined with many other factors such as magikill electric wall+poison + spears shield bash + giants knockback+stun to knock spears/shadows/swordwrath off statue during rushes, albows, castle archer, etc. this is still counter-able.

Edit - Sorry for coming off as debating in any way. You guys gave great answers!

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For example we were just playing and this very situation happened - we couldn't directly attack the miner walls without our spears automatically engaging the other spears. Had we been able to continue directly attacking the miner walls, we could have rushed into the base and attacked and likely taken down there statue. The funny thing is the spears start by attacking the wall but then stop attacking it to engage other units. This needs to be fixed.

Edit:

Here is replay: www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7768752&version=2.22

This opens door for huge abuse of defense waiting until opponent attacks for an easy win. As you can see we would have clearly won or at least come very close - but without being able to fix our attack on the walls even if we defeat all of their units and walls we are decimated and it's back to square one for both but the reality is most if not all of the time the defense will win given that is has castle archer (huge) and is hiding behind walls (huge). Being able to attack the wall makes the game soo much deeper (not to mention realistic).

This has been in the game for a long time. It's not difficult to play around. Also, don't try to spearton rush lol.

A few points on your replay:

Gonna assume you're ibogoclub. Don't start with a castle archer. You need to get to the tower. No amount of miners in the early game will replace the economic boost and map control the tower will give you. By not starting with either swords or archers you lose out on important scouting information as well. Why spearton as your first unit? Speartons that early will be easily beaten by a few swords or some kiting archers. Beyond this you also aren't recapturing tower. Why. Your silly decision not to recap tower allowed your opponent to get tower spawn without an army and three minutes into the game. What are you even doing? Luckily you got your head out of your ass at the last second and captured the tower, but you let him have three minutes worth of tower income. Okay, you've been massing a stupidly large amount of spears. I don't know why you're doing that, but if you ARE going to do that don't show your opponent you have those until you attack. You prompted him to get up a couple walls and three castle archers. Which, in this case at least, was a good investment on his part. You have a bunch of units 6 minutes into the game but have not invested in merics. Why not? Don't know why you're queueing swords and not more speartons. Actually, don't know why you queued that many swords or speartons at all. Remember that this late in the game 3 speartons you made could have been a giant or a couple albows. You have over a thousand gold and about 400 mana at 7:56 but you decide to queue more sword/spearton and a couple archers. To say that it's a bad investment is an understatement. At 8:30 you decide to go full bumrush for whatever reason and sent up your entire economy to die. WHYY?! Regardless of how poorly your opponent played, you did much worse.

Essentially everything you said makes sense and this info alone will likely boost my rating 100-200 alone - thanks :)

There are some things that might need context. This isn't my strategy per-se but got it from watching a 1800~ replay except he used shadows.

Reason for sending economy up is because miners are underrated and block spearton shield bash which can delay my spears from running to statue. Also if timed properly they can distract opposing units at their statue/tank damage/kill archers and have no use if statue doesn't fall as it's gg if we fail anyway = might as well use them.

Also, without discrediting the value of your points (highly valuable info), we still would have won being able to attack the wall. Regardless what anyone thinks, the wall needs to be fixable. It needs to be able to be directly attacked. There is no valid reason for it not to be this way. This is exactly how it would be in real-life and making a great game should be as realistic as possible even with stick characters. If I were one of those stick characters - I would be attacking the wall - not speartons - but I can't even attack the wall - that intelligence isn't allowed - and the developers have the ability to create that - and they should.

Finally, thanks for the info about the tower. I actually knew the tower was very important and generally always go for tower struggle but definitely messed that up big-time this game and noticed it before you mentioned on the replay. As for swords the reason is they had rage and getting to tower with even a few can do a lot of damage before splash damage takes them out and it was extra $ that had to be spent. Merics don't help a lot with spear rush. They help to heal before the actual rush a lot but during the rush are essentially useless given that 1 spear has more health than they heal during the rushing part but you are right. I would take 3 spears over a small giant any day for a rush.

Regardless of these mistakes they don't negate the fact that making the miner walls targetable is the right thing to do.

Again:

*The wall is meant to delay units from attacking and right now it is such that units cannot target it to prevent this delay.*

*The wall is not meant to be permanent. If units rush and attack walls and retreat, they can be rebuilt. That is the point.*

You wouldn't have won even if you got past the wall. His miners, his units, and two castle archers will stop whatever amount of spears you throw at a resilience statue. This issue can be completely circumvented by using Ranged Units which SHOULD be the core of your army. Melee units can just be kited and stopped by walls. THAT is the point of a wall: To stop you from pressuring their economy with melee units. In regards to the swords, it's not about the cost or the use of swords in general, it's the queue time required. One sword queued is 3/5 of the time a spearton queues at. You'd be surprised at the rate at which a few merics (even one or two) can heal an army. Never underestimate it. They also provide extremely important protection from magikill poison which should never be overlooked.

Once again everything you are saying makes sense ONLY with the walls as they are. They SHOULD be targetable and will STILL block units - just not in a buggy way like they are now. There is no reason that the wall should remain non-targetable. Period end of story.

I actually have gotten merics many times prior with this exact strategy but didn't this time and yes they help, just not really during the actual rushing part.

As for not winning regardless - first off we did say in OP that we clearly would have won or come very close. This statement is true. If we didn't win - it would have been very close. We had a total of 9 spears 8 attacking the castle (1 ghost) and 3 archers and at least 2 swords with rage contributing a tiny bit more and all those miners who also bugged out as I almost always send miners up and they didn't move this time. With that said with the miners in front shielding + 3 archers + 2 swords + 9 spears rushing straight to statue - it would have been close at least.

Well, it wasn't and walls are as they are. If you really want to complain about it, tell it to the devs. Support@stickempires.com
It's been like this since October 2012, and it's not difficult to play around. Without it being like this it's impossible to turtle.

Well, think of it like this, 4 guys are blocking the only door to exit a room, you can't just run past them to whats behind them now can you?

Cheetos-->

The reality is if there are 4 speartons blocking the miner wall - I should be able to run 12 speartons past them and attack the wall. The wall is also spanning the ENTIRE map. Your example of a door makes no sense. Imagine 4 guys standing in an open field with a wall behind them across the entire field- 4 guys should be able to run by and attack the wall let alone 12. If what you were saying was true - there would never be another touchdown in football.

Just because something has been some way for 2 years doesn't mean it is right. That is why there is something called "change" and "improvement". This isn't a criticism of the game - it's us taking time out of our days to provide genuine input that we believe will help the game and make it better - and implementing this suggestion will make it better.

IHATETHISNAME-->

Going on forums to post an improved view of an aspect of a game I enjoy. That is what forums are for and I'm sure devs will see this. It has nothing to do with "difficulty to play around" and actually, it IS difficult to play around because it isn't right. You are basically arguing that it is how it is because that's how it's been and therefore that's how it's going to stay.

As for it being impossible to turtle - it will make turtling drastically harder but not impossible. There are many ways to deter rushes and the walls will still help by tanking a lot of damage and will still block enemies (not like they are jumping over it). It has to be targetable.

Another possibility if this is implemented is to add another miner wall (similar to 3 castle archers -> 3 miner walls) adding some more tanking or decrease the price to 100. These options are basically irrelevant because turtling is non-optimal anyways and this will basically fix the abuse of turtling that is going on right now.

Examples of ways to stop rushes -> one of the best is the spearton shield bash. Simply place your speartons on your statue (or retreat them to statue from miner wall after it is breached) and shield bash - it knocks all units off of the statue for a good amount of time where they take huge damage. This along with a couple of giants providing even more knockback, magikill wall+poison, shinobi, albows, archers w burn, castle archer, miners, resilience, the possibilities are endless. You have to also remember that a rusher is usually all-in and so using all of your resources to defend is what should be the case as if you successfully defend you basically win the game - which should therefore be HARD to do!

The fact is we need to take responsibility for knowing a rush is coming and prepare for it. If we get caught - it isn't because we couldn't simply turtle at our base waiting with 80 pop for 5 minutes only to decimate the opponent who gets impatient with our 3 castle archer+magikils+meric+ 12 speartons with shield bash+archers+full giants all hiding behind non-targetable miner walls not to mention injured units can garrison in castle and heal during the attack. It is because we had inadequate scouting and failed to properly counter the threat.

This essentially makes turtling hard but not impossible (which is how it should be). The fact that we can easily sit with every defense in the game hiding behind an impenetrable wall then garrison all units to heal after we decimate the attacker, rinse and repeat - is wrong.

albowtross should be able to fly across the walls too...
if you want walls to be realistic, not wanting a super magical wall that will scream after its death, or block any flying dudes and arrows from the sky, I recommend you to, meh, finish your opponent before he gets a wall

You do like rushing right? ;-;

This is something that applies to every player regardless of skill level. It is a key aspect to many boring nearly unpenetrable turtle strategies and is non-optimal. Provide one reason why it is better for the miner wall to remain untargetable. This reason also has to prove some sort of logic of how that is possible in the first place since everything else in the game is targetable except for the miner wall.

It is basically like saying - you can't attack the statue until you kill all enemy units.

If we can target the statue while being attacked by units we should be able to target the wall while being attacked by units. Period.

This was never a debate in the first place - the thread was asking how to attack the miner wall, because it is natural that it should be targetable.

And support has been emailed this thread as a suggested improvement so it's up to them now anyway.

Thanks for your feedback :)

EDIT: With much humility I must admit you were absolutely correct about the 9 spear+3 archer+2 swords being too little to take down that statue. Definitely need more than that but regardless, wall being targetable still would be necessary.

Here is another replay of this: www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7781397&version=2.22