Quote from Exxonite

I get what you're saying,
but for example: why the fuck do all THE PEOPLE 'ROUND THE WORLD keep whining over how they aren't rich, blaming it on the country and on other people, and then looking at the richman 'hatefully' for being rich, and blaming them for not giving to charity ..etc?

uh, people do this? there's a lot of concern about the severe wealth inequality in the US but aside from what the republican propaganda machine says about people "demonizing" the rich I never see it personally, and most of my friends are liberal. no one hates the rich for being rich, that's either an extreme example or an oversimplification of what people actually have a problem with.

Quote from Exxonite

They actually worked to be rich, why should they give their money and/or give a fuck about 'us'?

this argument only really applies to taxes, usually when massive corporations use tax loopholes to avoid paying a reasonable tax rate. no one is seriously arguing that they should redistribute their wealth just because they have a lot of it.

Quote from Exxonite

Equality doesn't exist in nature, it hasn't existed within humans and it won't exist.

appealing to nature is a bullshit argument. rape is extremely commonplace in nature, I don't see you arguing that we should get to do it too just because "nature" gets a free pass. our empathy and intelligence as a species is the reason we recognize equality is something to strive for. for most of us, at least.

I hate skinny people because i'm [not] skinny :(

Quote from Exilement

uh, people do this? there's a lot of concern about the severe wealth inequality in the US but aside from what the republican propaganda machine says about people "demonizing" the rich I never see it personally, and most of my friends are liberal. no one hates the rich for being rich, that's either an extreme example or an oversimplification of what people actually have a problem with.

In my home country they did.
Aside from that, I think you guys are mistaking justice for equality. This is a reply to Shanto aswell:

Equality of opportunity is a thoroughly nasty and totalitarian concept. It is the demand that no one should start (or continue) life with any advantages relative to another. Leaving aside genetic differences, which must persist until all hereditary endowments can be made precisely the same, and which for the time being must be accepted even though they are unfair (not unjust, although most people nowadays seem to have difficulty distinguishing between the two), the only way environmental factors affecting opportunities can be made equal is by social engineering on a scale that would make North Korea look like a paradise of laissez-faire = impossibru.
Not only is such equality impossible in practice – human nature will always subvert it – but it conflicts with the demand for justice, at least if justice has anything to do with the reward of individual conduct.

Equality is simply impossible in the human society. That's how we are made. That's why we humans have 7 deadly sins : Gluttony, greed, lust , wrath, pride, envy and sloth, but hey, that's what makes us human.

Quote from Exxonite

It is the demand that no one should start (or continue) life with any advantages relative to another.

I see it more as providing assistance for people who start life with a clear disadvantage relative to the majority of society. I don't think most people are strongly pushing for 100% equality in a literal sense like the way you're describing. There is a massive middle-ground between "no one should ever have any advantages in life ever" and "inequality is literally impossible and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise".

Quote from Exxonite

I think getting born is an equal enough opportunity to achieve 'that' greatness, the rest is up to you.

Where were you born? Where do you live? I'm asking you because someone who really had to struggle in life would never say that. There are people with clear advantages and clear disadvantages. No one is clamouring to make everyone equal, but assistance is definitely on the table. Your whole premise about people in Africa never changing despite all the money that goes there is pure and utter bullshit and you should be ashamed to say something like that. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has done so much to eradicate diseases in that area. So many people are devoting their lives to giving Africans a sustainable environment to live in. The problem is that there is so much povery and disease that it will take time. To brush off all charity because there aren't any instant-solutions is quite disgusting.

Quote from Nish

Where were you born? Where do you live? I'm asking you because someone who really had to struggle in life would never say that. There are people with clear advantages and clear disadvantages. No one is clamouring to make everyone equal, but assistance is definitely on the table. Your whole premise about people in Africa never changing despite all the money that goes there is pure and utter bullshit and you should be ashamed to say something like that. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has done so much to eradicate diseases in that area. So many people are devoting their lives to giving Africans a sustainable environment to live in. The problem is that there is so much povery and disease that it will take time. To brush off all charity because there aren't any instant-solutions is quite disgusting.

You are taking things out of contecst right now. You know that it's not 'pure and utter bullshit'.
IT IS A fact that OTHER people are responsible for the Africans' situation at the moment (colonial rule that kept the continent from progressing into a 2nd or first world society for the means of agriculture and slavery). As long people are greedy nothing will change. And people won't stop being greedy, in fact they are getting greedier and greedier. Do you really, honestly think that one would abandon his own happiness for others, you think that if one has an opportunity to become famous and rich he would throw it alway to help others, do you honestly think that? Because if you do, you are living in a fairy tail.

'someone who really had to struggle in life would never say that' ? No my friend, someone who had to really struggle in life would know that.

*Cracks knuckles*

Quote from Exxonite

You are taking things out of contecst right now. You know that it's not 'pure and utter bullshit'.

What is the context you spoke of then? You specifically and utterly framed charity as something of lesser value than it is. Show me what your context is.

Quote from Exxonite

IT IS A fact that OTHER people are responsible for the Africans' situation at the moment (colonial rule that kept the continent from progressing into a 2nd or first world society for the means of agriculture and slavery).

I didn't use the example first, idiot. You did. Let me quote you.

Quote from Exxonite

I get that for example African kids don't get the chance to succeed, but that's life, accept it. Why should we struggle about it aswell? It's a fact, no matter how much fucking money you give to charity or how much you blame the richmen for the situation there, it won't change.

You brought up Africa first. So given what you've said now, you're essentially saying is something like "Yeah people fucked it up, but so what? Thats life."

That IS disgusting.

Quote from Exxonite

As long people are greedy nothing will change. And people won't stop being greedy, in fact they are getting greedier and greedier. Do you really, honestly think that one would abandon his own happiness for others, you think that if one has an opportunity to become famous and rich he would throw it alway to help others, do you honestly think that? Because if you do, you are living in a fairy tail.

Well fairies don't have tails from what I've read. They just have wings. I think you meant tale.

Also, this is why you are full of shit. You are drawing no middle ground between altruism and lifelong devotion to charity. It is possible to help people while also helping yourself. A multi-billion dollar industry named Social Entreprenuerism is built around it. Go read books, see the world before you start telling people what the world is like.
Every philanthropist in history is proof that you are completely and utterly wrong. Billions of dollars have been spent in charity in the last year alone.

Who the fuck is talking about GIVING UP a life of fame and fortune just to help someone else? But doesn't mean you can't do the same. I am currently, out of my own pocket, paying for the education of no less than 17 children in my grandmother's village in Sri Lanka. I don't know them personally. All I know is they were excellent students who had no money to buy notebooks or pencils or textbooks and I issued a standing order to my bank to pay them. You know what that means? I didn't change the world. But fifty years from now, that would be 17 families that I have single-handedly rescued from poverty. 17 boys and girls who would have been peasants or toilet attendants or garbage delivery drivers will now be Engineers or Programmers or even Doctors. For you to fucking say something like "The world is tough, deal with it, charity changes nothing" is reprehensible beyond forgiveness.

Quote from Exxonite

'someone who really had to struggle in life would never say that' ? No my friend, someone who had to really struggle in life would know that.

No. I grew up cramped with 8 people in a house that was the size of a hotel toilet. Now I bought my own 2-storey house. I know what struggle is, and I'm telling you that you are full of shit.

In my experience, no one expresses those kinds of sentiments without being extremely shielded from the problems they're so ready to dismiss.

Quote from Exilement

In my experience, no one expresses those kinds of sentiments without being extremely shielded from the problems they're so ready to dismiss.

I assume you're talking to him and not me. I went past my teenage "Fuck the world" phase a while ago, I'm afraid.

Quote from Nish

*Cracks knuckles*



What is the context you spoke of then? You specifically and utterly framed charity as something of lesser value than it is. Show me what your context is.



I didn't use the example first, idiot. You did. Let me quote you.




You brought up Africa first. So given what you've said now, you're essentially saying is something like "Yeah people fucked it up, but so what? Thats life."

That IS disgusting.



Well fairies don't have tails from what I've read. They just have wings. I think you meant tale.

Also, this is why you are full of shit. You are drawing no middle ground between altruism and lifelong devotion to charity. It is possible to help people while also helping yourself. A multi-billion dollar industry named Social Entreprenuerism is built around it. Go read books, see the world before you start telling people what the world is like.
Every philanthropist in history is proof that you are completely and utterly wrong. Billions of dollars have been spent in charity in the last year alone.

Who the fuck is talking about GIVING UP a life of fame and fortune just to help someone else? But doesn't mean you can't do the same. I am currently, out of my own pocket, paying for the education of no less than 17 children in my grandmother's village in Sri Lanka. I don't know them personally. All I know is they were excellent students who had no money to buy notebooks or pencils or textbooks and I issued a standing order to my bank to pay them. You know what that means? I didn't change the world. But fifty years from now, that would be 17 families that I have single-handedly rescued from poverty. 17 boys and girls who would have been peasants or toilet attendants or garbage delivery drivers will now be Engineers or Programmers or even Doctors. For you to fucking say something like "The world is tough, deal with it, charity changes nothing" is reprehensible beyond forgiveness.




No. I grew up cramped with 8 people in a house that was the size of a hotel toilet. Now I bought my own 2-storey house. I know what struggle is, and I'm telling you that you are full of shit.

I just noticed that haha, guess that stupid fairy tail was in my head.

Well, I am glad that you helped these 17 children, that's really noble of you. And I am glad that you were able to buy yourself a house and live a good life. But what does that prove? As I grew , in Bulgaria, I could see a homeless person on every street, EVERY SINGLE STREET, the centers were full of them, do you know what the average salary was? And most likely still is? About 300-400 leva = around 200 dollars per month, you are my guest, try telling me what will these 400 (from both parents) cover in a 4-member family? Around 200-250 go for the taxes and you are left with 100-150 dollars for the whole month. Do you know why that was? Why? Because the politicians took everything, there was an enormous amount of unemployed people, all the factories became bankrupt, they are taking the money from the old people's pension funds to build highways . AND THAT'S GOING FOR 25-30 years now, you are telling me that people care about other people, that they help them and 'Justice will prevail'? With all my respect I can laugh all day on that. Humans don't change. Even if the charity actually helps them, other countries will fall prey to poverty and so on. It's an endless cycle and it has been going on for millenniums. If people really were as good as you describe them, they wouldn not had beslaved them in the first place. I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am afraid books have nothing to do with 'the real world'. Ever since ancient times, people had already given up to the greediness and lust for power. Lust is the strognest emotion a human being feels and wars have proven that.
You might be an exception (there are other exceptions yes), but most people would never give alway to charity if they don't have money for themselves.

It's just my opinion, you are free to feel whatever you want about it. Even disgustion

My parents aren't republican so thankfully I managed to avoid that phase. But yeah I was talking about him.

edit:

Quote from Exxonite

Even if the charity actually helps them, other countries will fall prey to poverty and so on. It's an endless cycle and it has been going on for millenniums

That doesn't mean it's not worth attempting to fix. You're acknowledging it does help, but apparently because it doesn't help enough, no one should even bother? What the fuck kind of reasoning is that?

Quote from Exxonite

As I grew , in Bulgaria, I could see a homeless person on every street, EVERY SINGLE STREET, the centers were full of them, do you know what the average salary was? And most likely still is? About 300-400 leva = around 200 dollars per month, you are my guest, try telling me what will these 400 (from both parents) cover in a 4-member family? Around 200-250 go for the taxes and you are left with 100-150 dollars for the whole month. Do you know why that was? Why? Because the politicians took everything, there was an enormous amount of unemployed people, all the factories became bankrupt, they are taking the money from the old people's pension funds to build highways . AND THAT'S GOING FOR 25-30 years now, you are telling me that people care about other people, that they help them and 'Justice will prevail'? With all my respect I can laugh all day on that. Humans don't change. Even if the charity actually helps them, other countries will fall pray to poverty and so on. It's an endless cycle and it has been going on for millenniums. If people really were as good as you describe them, they wouldn not had beslaved them in the first place. I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am afraid books have nothing to do with 'the real world'. Ever since ancient times, people had already given up to the greediness and lust for power. Lust is the strognest emotion a human being feels and wars have proven that.
You might be an exception (there are other exceptions yes), but most people would never give alway to charity if they don't have money for themselves.

This is not a debate, it's just my opinion. It might be disgusting to you , it really is sad, but for me it's the reality.

Again you are refusing to draw a line between casual altruism and some hardcore "love can change the world" bullshit. The former is legitimate, the latter is not. No one here disagreed with you that the human race is fundamentally selfish and skewered towards self-preservation. What I found completely inexcusable was your projection of what was happening onto the concept of charity in general. No one on this thread made the claim that human beings were wonderful people and that the earth was a fine place to live. This whole conversation was a reaction to your claim that equality is a myth. I was merely trying to illustrate that just because you can't fix the entire world, it doesn't make charity an emasculated concept. You said "charity will not change the world". That is akin to saying that charity doesn't help people. That shows, despite all your protests, a fundamental lack of knowledge of the millions of families who have benefitted from charity.

You seem to now be turning this into a "Will the human race help each other instead of helping themselves" but that wasn't what we were arguing about. My beef with you is your statement that charity doesn't make a difference. My beef with you is when you said "being born alone should be enough to achieve greatness." As someone who comes from a war-struck, disease-ridden country struck by natural disasters, I find that impossible to accept, because I constantly surrounded by examples of how wrong you are. No one is saying that the human race is perfect. That does not make even a singular act of charity any less useful.

Quote from Exxonite

Even if the charity actually helps them, other countries will fall prey to poverty and so on.

Ever heard that story about the guy who picked up Starfish at the sea shore and threw them back into the sea? His friend came up to him and said "Give it up man. You can't make a difference. There are too many starfish stranded out here. You can't save them all. You can't make a difference." But the man picked up another Starfish, threw it back into the sea, looked at his friend and said "Made a difference to that one."

Yes I do get what you are saying. And you are right, charity really does help, and I didn't mean to say that 'no one should bother doing it ' . I do know that it helps and alot of lives are being saved even at this very moment.
My first statement was wrong indeed, I was trying to imply that equality is not possible since even if Africa stabilizes ( which it hopefull will since if I am not mistaken has the fastest growing economy at the moment). There will always be Rich > poor, Strong>weak, if there wasn't, we would had probably not survived till now.

With my very first statement I didn't even want to imply that charity is not significant at all and won't help Africa, but I guess I did.

Quote from Exxonite

With my very first statement I didn't even want to imply that charity is not significant at all and won't help Africa, but I guess I did.

weird, because after you were called out on your first statement you backed it up with this:

Quote from Exxonite

I get that for example African kids don't get the chance to succeed, but that's life, accept it. Why should we struggle about it aswell? It's a fact, no matter how much fucking money you give to charity or how much you blame the richmen for the situation there, it won't change.

literally the exact opposite of what you just said.

odd how that fact also became an "opinion" by the end of this too.

Quote from Exxonite

Yes I do get what you are saying. And you are right, charity really does help, and I didn't mean to say that 'no one should bother doing it ' . I do know that it helps and alot of lives are being saved even at this very moment.
My first statement was wrong indeed, I was trying to imply that equality is not possible since even if Africa stabilizes ( which it hopefull will since if I am not mistaken has the fastest growing economy at the moment). There will always be Rich > poor, Strong>weak, if there wasn't, we would had probably not survived till now.

With my very first statement I didn't even want to imply that charity is not significant at all and won't help Africa, but I guess I did.

Thank you.

Now to get back to topic. I hate Tim Allen. Fuck that dude and every single unfunny thing he has said while demaning millions of dollars for saying it.