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Cycloids

Started by: PUMU | Replies: 128 | Views: 10,952

PUMU
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Jan 6, 2015 7:37 PM #1291112
so... i recently watched a few replays of a user using ele well enough to take the lead and i watch as he loses two cycloids to a group of 5 wings.

The problem i see:
cycloids cant do shit vs wings even 3 cycloids fail to cripple a group of wings.
4 cycloids or more is ridiculous because at that point your ground force is almost nothing.
Cycloid tornado is ok as it is i really have no problem with this support spell aside from the fact that it has an odd hitbox that usually only allows super packed units to be hit almost similar to the marrowkai hell fist spell which i think vs wings isnt the greatest thing as they tend to spread out.
Health of cycloids is debatable as it helps the other player in some cases but in reality enables the other player to shoot a cycloid down without even thinking about it if not used in a hit and run fashion. which in this use disables the ele player from utilizing its melee. which tends to make it as useful as a v in most scenarios.
cycloids speed is perfectly fine.
cycloid shield is the thing i think should compensate for the deficit that cycloids have in game. i think it should reduce the damage taken from incoming projectiles a bit more than it currently does a flurry of 5 arrows shouldnt take a bar and some away whilst using the shield spell. either that or make the shield spell last a bit more as to be actually able to use its melee for more than a hit and a half at best. the second one may be bad though as it could make it so that cycloids can easily chase down archidons. if they simply increase the effectiveness of the shield or alter the hitbox of the tornado this would fix the problem the anti-air unit shouldnt have
Skeletonxf
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Jan 6, 2015 7:43 PM #1291114
Cycloids against Marrowkai are also lol ded.
I think the protect spell should grant immunity and cure any existing debuff effects.
This allows cycloids to tank CDs and retreat alive without costing ele further, this allows Cycloids to do something against Marrowkai, and this also gives ele a late game response to Marrowkai when it wants to use v.

I think cycloids should be turned into tank air units used to protect airs that then deal the dps. It would stop cycloids having to melee to do anything useful and this would deal with the rediclouous back and fourth of wing mass in evc currently. Also, cycloids being made more tank orientated could have damage and or stun time taken off their AoE to prevent that 4+ strangehold with stuns. However, this tank reform would also require airs to be made more useful/stronger late game or it wouldn't help ele deal with wing mass anyway.
Phaxtolgia
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Jan 7, 2015 1:20 AM #1291276
Quote from Skeletonxf
Cycloids against Marrowkai are also lol ded.
I think the protect spell should grant immunity and cure any existing debuff effects.
This allows cycloids to tank CDs and retreat alive without costing ele further, this allows Cycloids to do something against Marrowkai, and this also gives ele a late game response to Marrowkai when it wants to use v.

I think cycloids should be turned into tank air units used to protect airs that then deal the dps. It would stop cycloids having to melee to do anything useful and this would deal with the rediclouous back and fourth of wing mass in evc currently. Also, cycloids being made more tank orientated could have damage and or stun time taken off their AoE to prevent that 4+ strangehold with stuns. However, this tank reform would also require airs to be made more useful/stronger late game or it wouldn't help ele deal with wing mass anyway.
This is what ele needs. :D
Dazzy

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Jan 7, 2015 2:08 AM #1291307
I honestly love the concept of current cycloids except...it just doesn't work. Also, double tornado should either be made a feature or fixed and make single tornado better imo.
nutsophast

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Jan 7, 2015 2:42 AM #1291326
Gotta agree with DaZ on this one, I disagree with double tornado being a feature though. Maybe an increase in stun and/or range. tbh I don't really think this change would be necessary as I think of cycloids as more of a support based unit rather than melee.
MustRemainSecret
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Jan 7, 2015 7:12 AM #1291451
Having done countless cycloid masses up to 2k~ I feel I can make a relevant comment on this.

Actually cycloids health is pretty good imo. I find a lot of times while attacking their statue, that they can tank a ton of castle archer hits while waiting on mass heal. One more bar might actually be best.

Their speed is great the way it is too, imo.

I love how they can chase down eclipsors and waste them. Kiting and entire long map does nothing to them especially with a water underneath to heal.

There are a couple of things (and it seems we all agree):

Protect can be pretty useless. Don't get me wrong it's actually pretty good in essence - but practically when you have 4+ cycloids it's very hard to cast that spell on all of them so it goes to waste. It could cure+protect from poison+burn. Most importantly the ability to SELF protect would be great rather than being able to protect other units (the time it takes to cast the spell negates any potential benefit it has imo).

Tornado: Double tornado -ehh, nah.

Tornado needs another level - tornado 2 (or hurricane?) with greater radius, duration and damage (should one-hit archers). This will help to break through fully established order turtles. When done properly, archers would either retreat or get caught in tornado and with self protect 'loids would not be as easily picked off by mass archers as they are now.

***

If you think about it the amount a water can heal and freeze (can be WAY more valuable than a cycloid by itself!) and 20 seconds to make an air.

A charrog costs 600 gold+16 seconds cycloid 750 20 seconds... but which is more powerful at the moment?
Skeletonxf
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Jan 7, 2015 5:05 PM #1291645
Cycloid hp is terrible against wingmass, you cannot match the gold efficiency of spamming wings and poking with arrows no matter what you do including use of waters.

Aside from fixing ele's issues, we need to be extra careful not to give ele something insanely broken like trees on release. Cycloid chain stuns have the potential to deny the opponenet from doing a single thing for the whole fight - it's good that this ridiculous strength can't currently be abused that much because before that point the cycloids are too weak. Ele getting too strong will probably cause something like GoCycloidsOrGoHome which would be so much worse than ele being too weak.
MasterKaito
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Jan 7, 2015 7:01 PM #1291681
To make this equivalent, simply nerf tree mass and buff cycloids.
Sevarus

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Jan 7, 2015 10:19 PM #1291786
More trees nerfs aren't they nerfed already and don't they take up 7 space Tress are find in my opinion is not like all ele player tree mass is it?

Id like to add ele was some great ideas

combineing units
a unit that creates over units
a unit that can be melee or a miner
a unit that can posses other units
a unit that can scarifies it self and mass heal
and many more ;)

If they can perfect this the empire will be enjoyable for all and already is for some people. I play ele sometimes and would love it to get the balance is deserves.
MasterKaito
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Jan 8, 2015 12:33 AM #1291858
Quote from lewislewis
More trees nerfs aren't they nerfed already and don't they take up 7 space Tress are find in my opinion is not like all ele player tree mass is it?

Id like to add ele was some great ideas

combineing units
a unit that creates over units
a unit that can be melee or a miner
a unit that can posses other units
a unit that can scarifies it self and mass heal
and many more ;)

If they can perfect this the empire will be enjoyable for all and already is for some people. I play ele sometimes and would love it to get the balance is deserves.


Ah, you must be using Internet Explorer
MustRemainSecret
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Jan 8, 2015 2:03 AM #1291897
http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?89971-Wing-Mass-Counter&p=1291888#post1291888
nutsophast

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Jan 8, 2015 3:01 AM #1291939
Kaito, explorer has nothing to do with elemental balance lol. Trees don't need a nerf, scrops already take forever to respawn and trees can't break turtle either.
Dazzy

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Jan 8, 2015 3:36 AM #1291963
I...please. This is such a pet peeve of mine.

Having done countless cycloid masses up to 2k~ I feel I can make a relevant comment on this.


Why why why why why do you have to insistently state rank in every thread you make, just make a comment and we'll judge on that not rating (besides, it's DM, which is much more of a mess for balance.)

More on point, cycloids are pretty crappy when they're supposed to be specialised anti-air. Good wing control dispatches them easily.

Some ideas to change cycloid and/or what ifs:

Say cycloid had a short ranged attack/far melee attack and a faster movement speed. Basically the goal is to intensify the micro required on both players, so kiting backwards won't trade as efficiently vs a faster cycloid with a bit more range, but being a ranged attack, wing users now can "dupe" (similar to mindgames with archer v archer+sword snipes, where you move your archer forward then back, duping them into moving onto your side.) to provide their efficient trade.

Something that'd be more likely would be a removal of double tornado and an increased cycloid speed, allowing them to effectively chase wings and then run. This allows the cycloid to get closer to the wings fast, then use a tornado as a way of punishing (and as nutso said, perhaps a fraction more stun) wings, similar to how double tornados are currently used now but slightly weaker.

Either way, these are just ideas to theorise about.
MustRemainSecret
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Jan 8, 2015 5:39 AM #1292067
Sorry, it seems to depend on the user whether they want to hold their higher rank against us in these forums - so it is just to add credibility but with that said i'll stop that if it annoys you.

In this case I was pointing out that having a lot of experiences with cycloid masses they can be effective with 4 or more but in reality they need to be buffed.

Protect needs to be only for the loid imo, this way it will be like Charrog's burn and easier to execute. Protecting 3 or 4 loids is a nightmare especially when it doesn't last that long so it has to be done when starting an attack which makes it soo hard to micro all of that on top of regular play.

Make tornado a regular spell for loids and add an upgrade with more damage+stun like infernos meteor shower. On it's own, the tornado right now is weak like rain of fire.
nutsophast

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Jan 8, 2015 6:03 AM #1292092
Cycloids aren't a damage unit, tornado shouldn't have a damage buff or any upgrade that increases damage. I don't think cycloids would need any big change like adding something new or changing the entire concept of it, just some stat changes. Making protect be limited to only the cycloid is a big freaking no, one of the main purposes of the spell is to help other units.

I like DAZ's second idea, I just wonder if less health may be needed to compensate for this buff.
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