Ele assesement

Started by: Skeletonxf | Replies: 172 | Views: 22,228

Skeletonxf
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Feb 1, 2015 8:24 PM #1302757
Quote from WyzDM
Cycloids need a buff? Fucking. No.

They are fine. They're just not cost effective. Get enough of them and you can have a field day. That's the problem.

I know I sound like a broken record, but eles don't need unit buffs. They need structural buffs before we even care about that.

Right, enough of us talking on the subject and not collating info together or directly addressing ele unit costs
Here's a list of every single ele unit, we'll discuss and hopefully come to some sort of idea on which units are too cost efficient if any, and which units are too cost inefficient.

Screw the list, we have too many conflicting views.
I'll quote some major posts and let us see where that takes us.

Quote from spino
Earth -- Cost Effective
Water -- 300 Gold is more effective (even 250 I mean it only freezes and can mass heal)
Air -- Cost Effective
Fire -- 400 gold
Charrog -- We can argue here: It is cost effective really tanky and cannot be insta stoned. W/ fire lessened by 50 gold it puts it at 550g 100m
Tree -- Cost effective. It is 4 population for water and Earth then you add the 3 scorps putting it at 7. The max you can get is 11 trees giving 33 scorps with upgrades can be cost effective: In the end Costs only 500 gold and 100 mana (if water decreased by 50 450 gold). Which the 450 gold makes more sense because trees cannot tank for air units.
Cycloid -- 750 gold is too much, 700 is still to much. IDK what we can do with this other then adding 1 more ability or bringing back the shield to its former power.
infernos -- Expensive: 850 gold 100 mana. With fire decrease It'd be 800 gold 100 mana. It is a risky unit but can be OP. I think 800 gold for it is okay but a possible 100 gold return for purchasing unit and making it cost 200 mana is better.
V -- Too expensive, slightly decrease population cost also. normal 1350 gold 100 mana. W/ decrease costs 1250 or 1200 and 100. How about we go with 1000 and 200 another example of a return bonus.
Scorplings -- They come from a tree :| they are fine
Blind Gate -- :| Only effective when you can combo it with infernos to super murder opponents base.
Scorch -- 800 gold (750 with decrease) Only good do use when you are in enemy base and can get a bunch of archer/air units + miners with blast. (3 archers+, 6 miners+, 6 swords+ 2 albows+, Stun 2+ spears so your units can FINISH HIMis a plus+) Depends on how it is used.
Chomplers -- are perfectly fine.

How is that.


Quote from mysterybat
talking about earth , it still takes 8 seconds to be converted to a miner (4 second queue time, 4 second convert)

due to low attack speed but can be converted to a miner

How about a earth costs 125 gold, and then ability to be converted to miner costs 25 gold more?

And I actually think EvO is quite balanced now. The issue is only EvC, chaos players who are "good" enough can kill an elemental player within 4 mins. But I do not see that kind of chaos players though.

All units of elemental are quite fine, the only problems are the blind gate issue , tower spawn 2 and weak air force.


Quote from mysterybat

but just to mention, a 1300 gold V getting one hit kill is quite painful


Quote from Skeletonxf
12 to get out, 16 to get out AND transform.
The math would be 12 + 4 + (brief walking time) = 16 + (brief walking time)
versus
24 + (longer walking time)


Quote from PUMU
airs wont be a good option as they cant kite the swords if a archers come-a-chasin.
fires at least can deal the extra dot and kite not to mention the quicker que time for an exchange of 50 gold to have a water that can deal massive damage via scorch or tech into tree
3 techs for fire vs air who cant directly deal with situational issues.
airs animation is a pain to consider


Some things to note
Ele gets miners out way faster than order and chaos when it is not buying earths to fight with
Ele's way of dealing with archers early game is a castle air
Ele has no low tech ways to respond to archers
Ele has no efficient way to respond to bombs
Ele has no efficient way to respond to turtles

Ele could be made incentivised to fight with earths (with some earth changes) in the early game and to not rely on the castle air (which could also be nerfed), which would then mean ele doesn't get free eco gains from going passive early-mid game and the ele costs for later units could be brought down without powerspiking ele in the mid game and, and ele would then have its late game buffed thanks to not having suddenly no units to buy as the gold supply dwindles and gold costs remain high (as currently happens).
Phaxtolgia
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Feb 1, 2015 8:40 PM #1302766
Airs and trees are practically the only cost efficient units. Waters? Not sure.
Skeletonxf
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Feb 1, 2015 9:04 PM #1302771
Hmm. Waters heal up most of a unit's health. With the upgrade I'd say about 2/3rds heals, which is also about 2/3rds the cost of cycloids and charrogs, so the water is about as expensive as the cycloid/charrog it can be used to heal up.
Phaxtolgia
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Feb 1, 2015 9:41 PM #1302778
Quote from Skeletonxf
Hmm. Waters heal up most of a unit's health. With the upgrade I'd say about 2/3rds heals, which is also about 2/3rds the cost of cycloids and charrogs, so the water is about as expensive as the cycloid/charrog it can be used to heal up.


Yeah but if used efficiently, it can be used to fully heal an entire army (unless you're using nothing but charrogs.)
Skeletonxf
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Feb 1, 2015 9:43 PM #1302779
That is a very good point, but on the other hand it can't be used to remove poison on a few units efficiently at all.
spino

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Feb 1, 2015 9:54 PM #1302784
Earth -- Cost Effective
Water -- 300 Gold is more effective (even 250 I mean it only freezes and can mass heal)
Air -- Cost Effective
Fire -- 400 gold
Charrog -- We can argue here: It is cost effective really tanky and cannot be insta stoned. W/ fire lessened by 50 gold it puts it at 550g 100m
Tree -- Cost effective. It is 4 population for water and Earth then you add the 3 scorps putting it at 7. The max you can get is 11 trees giving 33 scorps with upgrades can be cost effective: In the end Costs only 500 gold and 100 mana (if water decreased by 50 450 gold). Which the 450 gold makes more sense because trees cannot tank for air units.
Cycloid -- 750 gold is too much, 700 is still to much. IDK what we can do with this other then adding 1 more ability or bringing back the shield to its former power.
infernos -- Expensive: 850 gold 100 mana. With fire decrease It'd be 800 gold 100 mana. It is a risky unit but can be OP. I think 800 gold for it is okay but a possible 100 gold return for purchasing unit and making it cost 200 mana is better.
V -- Too expensive, slightly decrease population cost also. normal 1350 gold 100 mana. W/ decrease costs 1250 or 1200 and 100. How about we go with 1000 and 200 another example of a return bonus.
Scorplings -- They come from a tree :| they are fine
Blind Gate -- :| Only effective when you can combo it with infernos to super murder opponents base.
Scorch -- 800 gold (750 with decrease) Only good do use when you are in enemy base and can get a bunch of archer/air units + miners with blast. (3 archers+, 6 miners+, 6 swords+ 2 albows+, Stun 2+ spears so your units can FINISH HIMis a plus+) Depends on how it is used.
Chomplers -- are perfectly fine.

How is that.
Azxc
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Feb 2, 2015 2:23 AM #1302877
Huh... I don't think V is too expensive though...
if you can master using Vs they are very powerful
Lowing their price will make V users invincible

Apart from it, how about a "return gold" opinion?
Earth, water, air and fire are strong enough for early game for many other SE players
if we further decrease their cost then it is harder to survive the initial strikes of elementals

I believe the main problem of elemental is their late game, which is due to their not cost-efficient high tier units
Maybe, a combination return some gold to us?
For example: fire+air= infernos
original cost is 450G+400G+100Mana= 850G+100Mana , which everyone thinks it is expensive
my ideal cost is 450G+400G+100Mana, after combination maybe a suitable ammount of gold, maybe 200G-400G may return

majorly I believe elemental early units are fine as it is while late units need some eco buff
buffing early units will just make deathmatch more horrible...

p.s. oh ****, I repeated Spino's "return bonus" point, didn't meant to copy his
nutsophast

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Feb 2, 2015 3:31 AM #1302906
I don't agree with this list,
Earth: How is this not cost efficient?
Water: 350 gold for what it does is not bad, 300 or 250 wouldn't hurt.
Air: I agree.
Fire: I disagree, its burn is nasty and it's great against soft targets. The extra 50 gold compared to the air is nothing, the -4 seconds of que time make up for it IMO.
Charrog: Gotta agree with spino here.
Tree: I agree again with spino.
Cycloid: It's a little too costly, but mid-late game ele has lots of gold to burn if you play it properly, so I think it's fine. Also like I said above, changing water cost wouldn't hurt and it can also make the cycloid cheaper.
Infernos: A little costly, but if used properly it more than makes up for it and like I said you usually have lots of gold to burn.
V: Definitely too expensive, not worth getting, clone upgrades add to the already expensive cost.
Scorplings: ...
Blind gate: XD
Scorch: Has its moments, but not the most cost efficient.

Late game is not a big problem IMO, it's not often you get a 12:00+ game and it's not fair to call it unbalanced because of that rare chance of a long game. The problem isn't just the ele units, it's mostly the fact that ele has no giant and like how chaos sucks on short maps, ele has no giant and therefore it sucks late game. I think that's fair. Besides Chaos has a higher chance of fighting on castle than Elementals not being able to finish the game before the opponent can get out giants.
MasterKaito
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Feb 2, 2015 5:20 AM #1302936
Quote from Azxc
Huh... I don't think V is too expensive though...
if you can master using Vs they are very powerful
Lowing their price will make V users invincible

Apart from it, how about a "return gold" opinion?
Earth, water, air and fire are strong enough for early game for many other SE players
if we further decrease their cost then it is harder to survive the initial strikes of elementals

I believe the main problem of elemental is their late game, which is due to their not cost-efficient high tier units
Maybe, a combination return some gold to us?
For example: fire+air= infernos
original cost is 450G+400G+100Mana= 850G+100Mana , which everyone thinks it is expensive
my ideal cost is 450G+400G+100Mana, after combination maybe a suitable ammount of gold, maybe 200G-400G may return

majorly I believe elemental early units are fine as it is while late units need some eco buff
buffing early units will just make deathmatch more horrible...

p.s. oh ****, I repeated Spino's "return bonus" point, didn't meant to copy his


very few have mastered V. In fact , I've only seen myst do it with his flash possess.
What I think is a problem is how troops in ele are made so quick. I think some units get stronker, while the time to make them increases.
PUMU
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Feb 2, 2015 2:58 PM #1303211
I guess nobody has seen me use V's then...
V's can be beautiful if used correctly.
Their possess ability gives them the option to basically anything into a tank. the clones can be very efficient at delivering heavy damage to most things really quickly.
Tele-Possess is a relatively easy way to catch retreating units with speed like shadows. one can also teleport behind walls. but doing so isnt recommended unless you can manage to survive with some clone placement until the cooldown for teleport is available again
MasterKaito
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Feb 2, 2015 3:09 PM #1303220
Quote from PUMU
I guess nobody has seen me use V's then...
V's can be beautiful if used correctly.
Their possess ability gives them the option to basically anything into a tank. the clones can be very efficient at delivering heavy damage to most things really quickly.
Tele-Possess is a relatively easy way to catch retreating units with speed like shadows. one can also teleport behind walls. but doing so isnt recommended unless you can manage to survive with some clone placement until the cooldown for teleport is available again


Yes, you are the best ele player of classic in my opinion. It's no surprise lawl. I could use Vs well before, but not anymore as I am using a bad mouse whilst I wait for a new one.
HashBrownTrials
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Feb 2, 2015 4:03 PM #1303249
How about swapping the cost of airs and waters but make airs give less DPS?
Skeletonxf
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Feb 2, 2015 4:06 PM #1303252
Quote from nutsophast
I don't agree with this list,
Earth: How is this not cost efficient?

I will respond to everyone here in due time, I just don't have the time now and I want some sort of consensual agreement to happen before I continue on the OP list.

Earths, compared to crawlers and swords do not match up in fighting ability. I'm not saying they have to, Earths basically HAVE to be 150 gold so that chomplers are equal price to miners, but Earths are not worth 25 more gold than a sword if you want to melee with them. They are also not worth 50 more gold than a chompler due to never landing a single hit on the crawlers in battle. Earths don't need to be cost efficient, I see them as meat shields and stall units which ele should then be able to use alongside other units, but just because Earths work at melee doesn't make them efficient at it.
jerrytt
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Feb 2, 2015 6:08 PM #1303273
Just a tiny thing to keep in mind when comparing elemental pricing to other races. Elementals should be more expensive than other races as they already have an econ boost from 4 second miners. It shouldnt be that much, but no way should a 800 gold elemental build compete with a 800 gold build of another race.
PUMU
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Feb 2, 2015 7:13 PM #1303283
i wonder how much of a difference it would make in evc if the earth attack animation wasnt so damn long