This was in General Help but I thought it pertinent to go here instead because it's semi-discussion.

Please don't link me anything from DarkDemon (as I understand they use this system) or any other stick anim site. I want the Subjective / Cliff Note's version from anyone who knows straight up: What exactly constitutes as being a low/mid/high beginner/inter/advanced animator. Like, what concepts should they already have known and what anims should they be capable of doing. An orderly listing would be nice to have.



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I ask because I've noticed these terms being passed around too much for awhile, and I genuinely wanna know if they're being legit. Like when someone says they're Mid-Beginner, are they really or are they just fucking ashamed about the fact that their just a virgin low-beginner (unless it's an excuse to not battle someone, or to not expect to win against someone) who knows the concepts but can't put his money where his mouth is. I wouldn't know, but I do know nobody in their right mind readily admits they're a low-beginner which means everyone appears to be talking crap somehow.

It would also be nice to clear the air to let people know where they really stand. Maybe they're claiming their Inter when they really aren't. And nobody at all is fazed about this or their too Expert to care to wanna help noobs help themselves, I dunno.

And perhaps in the longrun we can have like, a proper "curriculum" listing of what exactly you should be learning and in what order should you be taking tutorials? It has been ages since Hidro stepped down as Mod, and the initiative to properly "fix" the tutorial and help section has changed hands alot but never really gotten anywhere.

Now I know some oldies like Exilement are just going to say something like "we have tuts since pre-merge, just link them there". That's all fine and dandy but see, nobody really does that anymore and that's the problem. There is no direction because the community doesn't have this obligation to constantly mentor newbies. Gone are the clans composed of 2 Experts, 2 Inters, and 2 Beginners who genuinely exist to teach each other new things. Gone are the days when making good stuff meant more than just showing off. Experts who excel don't give back unless it's to get paid/sponsored.

Well if they can't or won't mentor anymore, then the newbies should be able to help themselves, which brings me right back to this question. If the regular newb has a roadmap to success, then we can't blame ourselves for not trying to cultivate something here. That's how it was back then right before the golden age of stick animation, right?

People should send me their animations and I will allocate them a rank accordingly.

Quote from Nish

People should send me their animations and I will allocate them a rank accordingly.

Yep, I can imagine your ranks
number 1 - Terkoiz level
number 2 - Terkoiz level
number 3 - Terkoiz level
try to guess all of them up to number 34 and so on


About Hewitt's post, if you read that thread I made about discouragement, you should remember what my thoughts are about "animation skills"
For those who did not read it, I wrote about it being the “capability of making and showing that which is wanted to be made and shown” (if you want to read the whole article, it's here http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?90985-About-Discouragement-amp-Improvement)
That said, since I have this consideration about it, I'm not so keen about having a specific skill classification, since there isn't exactly a precise "meter" with which you can set who's better and who's not. If you think about DarkDemon, many people that came here complained about its elitism and rank organization (however I never read their discussions, thus I'm talking here on a "I have heard" level)
However, if on one hand there is no way to set who's "better", on the other there are some aspects about animating which do influence the outcome of an animation. Here, we start talking about effects, easing, anticipation, fluidity, force, camera movements, shadows and lights sources and so on. These are all aspects which contribuite about making an animation "better"

THe whole point of what I wrote up here is basically this: to remove low/mid/high beginner-intermediate-advanced/pro tags when talking about animators and animations and to refer to them considering on one hand their “capability of making and showing that which is wanted to be made and shown” and on the other their "technical" skills (fluidity, ecc.)


This said, about your mentors' thing, I'd like to offer as an example this thing http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?56213-DiPi-s-Animating-School!-(Students-must-have-IRC)&highlight=animation+school
I rememeber that when I made it, it was quite popular and it seemed it would have worked fine. However, it failed mainly for 2 reasons
1- Students weren't constant in their responsabilities
When I started doing lessons, they didn't have irc (even though I wrote about having it) and we couldn't arrange a time to work on live about animation. If it wasn't that, they didn't attend the lessons because they couldn't be online on that day and they forgot to tell me about it
2- Teachers completely disappeared
To keep things in order, I remember asking them about sending updates on certain things. I didnt receive them

What I learned from that experience is that a mentorship project is wanted and well-accepted, but both those who mentor and those who are mentored should be a little more serious about doing it. About motivating them into being it, I really don't have an answer :\


About tutorials, I feel like I could have something to say about it, but right now I can't picture it. Maybe I'll say something later


Also, just curious: what you mean by "golden age of stick animation"?

Quote from DiPi

Yep, I can imagine your ranks
number 1 - Terkoiz level
number 2 - Terkoiz level
number 3 - Terkoiz level
try to guess all of them up to number 34 and so on

What is it about ANYTHING that I have ever posted in my 5 years in stickpage that convinced you I would take up this ranking system? Seriously.

Quote from DiPi

Also, just curious: what you mean by "golden age of stick animation"?

He is referring to the few animations that I made, after which stickpage was bathed in a pregnant glow of satisfaction for a few days because of how well I nailed the easing, spacing and smooth flow aspects of animation.

Quote from Nish

What is it about ANYTHING that I have ever posted in my 5 years in stickpage that convinced you I would take up this ranking system? Seriously.

This↓

Quote from Nish

He is referring to the few animations that I made, after which stickpage was bathed in a pregnant glow of satisfaction for a few days because of how well I nailed the easing, spacing and smooth flow aspects of animation.

You basically answered yourself

So what does me being the single greatest animator of all time, even better than Walt Disney and Chuck Jones, have to do with me rating people based on Terkoiz?

Forget about ranking yourself and focus on working your weaknesses. Beginner implies that you excel in nothing; all elements of animating is equally shit. Which is clearly not the fucking case. How do you even know if the guy handing out these titles knows what the fuck he is doing? You break up animation into different parts, and focus on improving these areas. Now I gave up animating way way way back when I thought animating stickies were cool but some areas I would consider are: background, fight/action choreography, camera angles, story/dialogue, art style, animation. These can be further broken up into more detailed subjects. One of the problems why no one is improving or producing anything of note is that they focus on one thing only and fail to cover these other areas.

There is a theory of teaching called scaffolding, where in order to improve/learn you must give the person a challenge where it is not too hard for them, or not too easy in that it becomes boring. When learning on your own, you must realize whether the task you are challenging yourself with is too easy in that it becomes a waste of time (e.g. doing the same 3 hit combo over and fucking over), or too difficult (trying to complete a 10 minute short) that it would likewise be pointless to continue.

I would like to see more collaborative works (not that I watch any animations anymore, I'm just assuming shit here). Not this Doors bullshit where you string works of random individuals together. Think of a 5 man project. Play to your strengths. A guy good at backgrounds can do backgrounds. A guy good at story can do story. Animators animate. Musician music. You have a director, an experienced animator who overlooks it and decides if any changes are made. Doing this you develop skills beyond fucken stick figures given that you enquire. You learn how to communicate, you learn how others work and their technique and you can create things way more amazing then a single Terkoiz can. It develops a community since now your aim is to help the weaker guy up so that in the end together as a group you can produce something great. Individual fame is overrated.

EDIT: And fuck RHG. Making shit into a competition.

Quote from Envoy

Forget about ranking yourself and focus on working your weaknesses. Beginner implies that you excel in nothing; all elements of animating is equally shit. Which is clearly not the fucking case. How do you even know if the guy handing out these titles knows what the fuck he is doing? You break up animation into different parts, and focus on improving these areas. Now I gave up animating way way way back when I thought animating stickies were cool but some areas I would consider are: background, fight/action choreography, camera angles, story/dialogue, art style, animation. These can be further broken up into more detailed subjects. One of the problems why no one is improving or producing anything of note is that they focus on one thing only and fail to cover these other areas.

There is a theory of teaching called scaffolding, where in order to improve/learn you must give the person a challenge where it is not too hard for them, or not too easy in that it becomes boring. When learning on your own, you must realize whether the task you are challenging yourself with is too easy in that it becomes a waste of time (e.g. doing the same 3 hit combo over and fucking over), or too difficult (trying to complete a 10 minute short) that it would likewise be pointless to continue.

I would like to see more collaborative works (not that I watch any animations anymore, I'm just assuming shit here). Not this Doors bullshit where you string works of random individuals together. Think of a 5 man project. Play to your strengths. A guy good at backgrounds can do backgrounds. A guy good at story can do story. Animators animate. Musician music. You have a director, an experienced animator who overlooks it and decides if any changes are made. Doing this you develop skills beyond fucken stick figures given that you enquire. You learn how to communicate, you learn how others work and their technique and you can create things way more amazing then a single Terkoiz can. It develops a community since now your aim is to help the weaker guy up so that in the end together as a group you can produce something great. Individual fame is overrated.

I absolutely agree with this. Scaffolding helps.

But what is your serious opinion on me being perhaps the single greatest animator who's presence God has decided to grace all of you with?

Quote from Envoy

I would like to see more collaborative works (not that I watch any animations anymore, I'm just assuming shit here). Not this Doors bullshit where you string works of random individuals together. Think of a 5 man project. Play to your strengths. A guy good at backgrounds can do backgrounds. A guy good at story can do story. Animators animate. Musician music. You have a director, an experienced animator who overlooks it and decides if any changes are made. Doing this you develop skills beyond fucken stick figures given that you enquire. You learn how to communicate, you learn how others work and their technique and you can create things way more amazing then a single Terkoiz can. It develops a community since now your aim is to help the weaker guy up so that in the end together as a group you can produce something great. Individual fame is overrated.

EDIT: And fuck RHG. Making shit into a competition.

He's right lol. That's pretty much how really good cartoons and anime series get their quality.

Oh and RHG technically isn't even a competition, it's literally a bunch of "friendly" animations that get voted. RHG is the least competitive of things hosted on SP when compared to b.s.e, gtl, ftc etc.

It only gets competitive because RHG can make animators push themselves and aspire to what others have done in RHG e.g Terkoiz. I don't mean copy or base their gladiators off of his, but aim to get into lots of battles and generally improve their animating.

Or to make sure they they're get famous for doing a certain style. And they would be competitive in this sense:
People would be like: "OMGROFLCOPTER I can do Guz style, I'll beet you in an RHG. Syriusly get rekt m8" "No ways my RHG has a jet sword with 5 guns and it releases unbreakable cables like attack on titan even Resh was impressed I'll defs win."

Quote from DiPi

Also, just curious: what you mean by "golden age of stick animation"?

Pretty much before or during the 1st year of RHGs, and also when this place was generating 2-3 threads a day in the Pivot section. Exilement and Co can relate to that.

Quote from Nish

What is it about ANYTHING that I have ever posted in my 5 years in stickpage that convinced you I would take up this ranking system? Seriously.

I too am confused about this. What do you know about Nish, Dipi?

Quote from GuardianTempest

I think he meant that if Nish would be ranked, he'd be a quantified Terkoiz.

What makes you think this? I said I would rank other people and he said I'd name all that ranks 'Terkoiz'. I really want to know what he meant. Please offer more useful theories that actually fit the events that transpired.

Quote from Hewitt

I too am confused about this. What do you know about Nish, Dipi?

Lelzhesjealousofmyfyteanimashunsss.

Quote from Captainalien72

He's right lol. That's pretty much how really good cartoons and anime series get their quality.

Oh and RHG technically isn't even a competition, it's literally a bunch of "friendly" animations that get voted. RHG is the least competitive of things hosted on SP when compared to b.s.e, gtl, ftc etc.

It only gets competitive because RHG can make animators push themselves and aspire to what others have done in RHG e.g Terkoiz. I don't mean copy or base their gladiators off of his, but aim to get into lots of battles and generally improve their animating.

Or to make sure they they're get famous for doing a certain style. And they would be competitive in this sense:
People would be like: "OMGROFLCOPTER I can do Guz style, I'll beet you in an RHG. Syriusly get rekt m8" "No ways my RHG has a jet sword with 5 guns and it releases unbreakable cables like attack on titan even Resh was impressed I'll defs win."

I dislike the idea of clans. Every clan wants to be the strongest and have the best animators. People forget how to share. Instead if we had groups like, story, choreography, sound, design, etc, I would like to imagine we see far more interesting content. I feel RHG has made people forget that there is animating beyond fight sequences. It happened to me.

But I won't say that RHG is all bad. It may be what got people into animating and may be the only reason why they're animating.

edit: I may be bullshitting in the first paragraph. Everything was pretty much fight sequences except not strictly in a 1 v 1 setting.

Quote from Envoy

Forget about ranking yourself and focus on working your weaknesses. Beginner implies that you excel in nothing; all elements of animating is equally shit. Which is clearly not the fucking case. How do you even know if the guy handing out these titles knows what the fuck he is doing? You break up animation into different parts, and focus on improving these areas. Now I gave up animating way way way back when I thought animating stickies were cool but some areas I would consider are: background, fight/action choreography, camera angles, story/dialogue, art style, animation. These can be further broken up into more detailed subjects. One of the problems why no one is improving or producing anything of note is that they focus on one thing only and fail to cover these other areas.

There is a theory of teaching called scaffolding, where in order to improve/learn you must give the person a challenge where it is not too hard for them, or not too easy in that it becomes boring. When learning on your own, you must realize whether the task you are challenging yourself with is too easy in that it becomes a waste of time (e.g. doing the same 3 hit combo over and fucking over), or too difficult (trying to complete a 10 minute short) that it would likewise be pointless to continue.

I would like to see more collaborative works (not that I watch any animations anymore, I'm just assuming shit here). Not this Doors bullshit where you string works of random individuals together. Think of a 5 man project. Play to your strengths. A guy good at backgrounds can do backgrounds. A guy good at story can do story. Animators animate. Musician music. You have a director, an experienced animator who overlooks it and decides if any changes are made. Doing this you develop skills beyond fucken stick figures given that you enquire. You learn how to communicate, you learn how others work and their technique and you can create things way more amazing then a single Terkoiz can. It develops a community since now your aim is to help the weaker guy up so that in the end together as a group you can produce something great. Individual fame is overrated.

I agree with your point about suggesting people to organize themselves into specific roles (I actually tried to make something like this with the first instance of the "RHG movie"). It has a lot of pros and few debatable cons (that in this way people learn to do nothing else than what they specialized in). The main problem would be to motivate them into starting it (to start is more difficult than to keep doing)

Quote from Hewitt

Pretty much before or during the 1st year of RHGs, and also when this place was generating 2-3 threads a day in the Pivot section. Exilement and Co can relate to that.

Since I couldn't witness those days (I joined the community 3 months before the merge), can I possibly know what kind of behaviour was around that makes it the golden age?


Also, I already answered you Nish

No you didn't at all. I'm also pretty sure that you know you didn't at all. You made a comment about me, I made a joke AFTER that. You later said that you made the EARLIER comment because of what I said AFTER you made the comment.

Also I don't see how your answer even adequately explains what you did. You said I would rank people based on Terkoiz (despite me never mentioning him ever) and later explained that you said that because I had a highly flowery view of myself as an animator. I don't see what that has to do with anything you said.

Quote from DiPi

Yep, I can imagine your ranks
number 1 - Terkoiz level
number 2 - Terkoiz level
number 3 - Terkoiz level
try to guess all of them up to number 34 and so on

Does he even still animate?

Also, just curious: what you mean by "golden age of stick animation"?

I thought he was referring to like 05-08ish. When most people on these sites actually... animated. Or at least dabbled in PS. Back in the Master_Samus/Oscar/Toughluck days.

I always figured skill was mostly determined by the viewer. The better the animation, the better an animator you were. You could have all the skill in the world, perfect easing, perfect physics, but if you cant put the skills to good use to make the animation worth watching they're useless. I wasn't a great animator, but I planned my anims and scenes within my abilities so I came off as better than I probably was.