Quote from Hewitt

I don't care which one of you 'made sense', you have ruined any form of arguing for or against DBZ characters, forever.

Put it in this perspective, whenever a poll with DBZ pops up, we are 100% CERTAIN, that you're going to come out and muck it up with shit that we've already clarified again and again. I mean, you've even exasperated Jeff, of all people. You know it's really serious when you've sent our Admin fuming.

The difference between you and Matthew is that Matthew is just your household troll. You's a stubborn nerd with a chip on his shoulder.

You do understand that, when 'I sent Jeff fuming', it was on Hulk vs Alucard debate, right? And clearly you were losing that one as well, you guys kept spamming the 'he'll kill all his souls in whatever astral realm he is hiding'..

Other than that, when we were debating over Goku vs Hulk, you guys kept saying the same thing over and over again thinking you have won: 'his anger is unlimited and his strength grows with it', COMPLETELY ignoring what I said. Yeah, good job with that one.
You are free to go to every more anime/comic oriented forum, or look up Goku vs Hulk. It doesn't really matter tho, if someone tries to argue logically with you on this theme, and you are losing, you'd just call it 'fanboyism'.

edit: besides, weren't you the one who thought Frieza would lose to OP universe.. Talking about mucking things up.

There truthfully is no argument.
DBZ characters no doubt have raw power , but Marvel characters are a lot more unique
The Marvel comics at this point have enough heroes for every single move any DBZ character has ever pulled .
someone mentioned silver surfer .
Just stop the conversation right there .
All he has to do is stop time and kill them all .
I mean it's better to have 100 actual more real life heroes rather than have 110 super saiyans when half all their moves is just finding different ways to shoot energy at people .
See what im saying..:confused:

Quote from Unbounded

*sigh*

Let me put this in perspective.

Thor has destroyed a planet in one hit.

The Hulk has smashed an asteroid twice the size of earth.

The DBZ characters are woefully mismatched.

Dabura spits on Hulk and Thor. Done. And im serious when I say spit. Literally....spits on them. They turn to stone. Anyone touches them. Besides, we can all agree it takes more than planet busting to win a fight for BOTH sides. Otherwise Hulk would beat Thor every single time.


And to RuDe. Have you seen the useless ass powers superheros have gotten nowadays? And if they aren't ridiculous they are just the typical super human type. Plus there are characters that have other abilities. Guldo - Stops time, Ginyu- Body Stealing. Dabura - turning people to stone when spitting on them. Babidi - the guy has magic, we all know the gimmicks people with magic have. Devilman (yes he is from dragonball) - Devilmite beam, any sort of evil in your heart and you are a dead man/women. There are characters with unique abilities but compared to Marvel, its not overdone where the "unique" powers dont feel quite unique since a large variety of different classes have them. For the most part, the unique abilities that have appeared on DBZ have been a one hit wonder kind of thing. But they have existed.

But I wait for someone to mention beings like The One above all or Living Tribual (however you spell that damn name) as if they would interfere with a battle like that among lesser beings. Whenever freaking Thanos threatens everything, most of the time no higher being wants to grow some balls and interfere while Captain America somehow out of all the heros saves the damn day......him or Spidey.

And unlike the heros, Goku for example, learns new moves. His array of techniques: Afterimage, Destructo Disk, Solar Flare, Instant Transmission, Ki blast, Kai wave, Kamehameha, Kaioken, Dragonfist, Spirit Bomb, Flight....Dont see the heros learning anything new for God knows how long. Took about 700 issues and reboot for spiderman to learn freaking Kung Fu.

Alright, I'm going to tackle this head-on as an unbiased party:

To begin, this is heavily in the favor of Marvel, despite Matt's rampant fanboyism. Clearing the air there, that's who would win in this. No real debate, but I'll proceed to explain why. To begin, let's look at the conditions of this match up:

Quote from Matthew Murphy

So, a time has come when the all the Marvel superhero teams have to face the saiyans- Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta- of Dragonball Z Kai! Which side will win?

The contestants are 3 vs many. Very, very many. I'll be properly listing the sides:

DBZ Kai
-Goku
-Gohan (we'll assume Adult Gohan)
-Vegeta

Every Marvel Superhero Team
Here's the list of all 347 of them.

Now, for the sake of proving a point, I'll take 5 teams at random and discuss them, and go over the DBZ Saiyans picked as well, so we can have something to compare besides that massive list vs 3 people.
-Skrull Kill Krew (consisting of Ryder and Riot)
-Immortal Weapons (consisting of Bride of Nine Spiders, Dog Brother #1, Fat Cobra, Prince of Orphans, and Tiger's Beautiful Daughter)
-Warbound (consisting of Elloe, Kate Waynseboro, Korg, and No-Name)
-Deadpool Corps (consisting of Deadpool, Headpool, Dogpool, Kid Deadpool and Lady Deadpool)
-Godpack (consisting of Anak, Bella, Blitziana, Loga, Luminor, Riger, and Zefra)

This has now adjusted the analysis from a 3 on Good God Look At That Number, to a somewhat more manageable 3 vs 23. Now, a brief run down of all their abilities and whatnots (Word of Warning: This is not every goddamn listed technique, it's as many as I feel need to be recognized; not every single type of punch or kick or grab or blah blah blah needs to be mentioned for the DBZ characters):

-Goku: Ki Blast, Invisible Eye Blast, Destructo Disk, Kamehameha Wave (and variations of such), Solar Flare, Homing Energy Wave, Saiyan Aura Wave, Energy Spirit Ball, Spirit Bomb (and variations of such), Afterimage, Flight, Instant Transmission, Kaio-Ken (and its variations), Golden Dragon Fist, Super Saiyan (and its variations, excluding God) and Ki Detection.
-Gohan: Flight, Ki Blast, Ki Manipulation, Masenko (and its variations), Gekiretsu Madan, Tenma Defense, Special Beam Cannon, Golden Dome Attack, Kamehameha Wave, Super Explosion Wave, Blaster Meteor, Full Power Energy Barrage Wave, Full Power Energy Blast Volley, Telekinesis, Energy Barrier, Ki Detection, Super Saiyan (and variations), Ultimate Form.
-Vegeta: Bang Beam, Big Bang Attack, Blaster Meteor, Destructo Disk, Dirty Fireworks, Energy Palm, Exploding Wave, Face Slap, Final Burst Cannon, Final Crash, Final Explosion, Final Shine Attack, Finger Beam, Galaxy Breaker, Galick gun (and its many variations), Hellzone Grenade, Ki Blast, Meteor Burst, Photon Bomber, Saiyan Energy Attack, Super Energy Wave Volley, Shine Shot, Spirit Breaking Cannon, Super Big Bang Attack, Super Energy Wave Volley, Super Explosive Wave, Afterimage, Flight, Energy Barrier, Ki Sense, Telekinesis, Super Saiyan (and its variations).

The abilities mentioned were all obtained via the DragonBall Z wiki, if anyone wants to verify it. Onto the Marvel cast....

Skrull Kill Krew
-Ryder: Shapeshifting (including guns with live ammunition), Telepathy, Teleportation, Cloaking, Heat & Flame Resistance, Healing Factor, Superhuman Reflexes, Super Strength.
-Riot: Armored Insectoid Transformations, Martial Arts Master

Immortal Weapons
-Bride of Nine Spiders: Spider Manipulation (a horde lives within her), Martial Arts Master, Spiked Collar w/Extending Spikes
-Dog Brother #1: Empathy Link w/Brothers, Tactician, Master Swordsman
-Fat Cobra: Super Strength, Super Endurance/Durability, Super Regeneration, Lightning Manipulation, Potential Immortality, Energy Binding, Superhuman Speed, Knowledge of Human Anatomy
-Prince of Orphans: Gaseous Transformation, Plane-Hopping (can exist in same realm as the dead), Potential Immortality, Martial Arts Master
-Tiger's Beautiful Daughter: Superhuman Strength (particularly in mouth), Master Martial Artist, Master Iron Fan Practitioner

Warbound
-Elloe: High Physical Conditioning, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat
-Kate Waynseboro: Rock and Tectonic Manipulation
-Korg: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Durability, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat
-No-Name: Brood powers, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat, Master at Armed Combat

Deadpool Corps
-Deadpool: Superhuman Healing Factor, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Agility, Superhuman Reflexes, Master at All Combat, Fourth Wall Breaking, Teleportation Device, Holographic Projector, Pocket Space Full of Weapons
-Headpool: Immortal Zombie Head
-Dogpool: Immortality from Ultimate Regeneration Factor
-Kidpool: Superhuman Healing Factor, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Agility, Superhuman Reflexes, Master at All Combat, Fourth Wall Breaking, Twin Lightsabers
-Lady Deadpool: Super Regenerative Factor, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Agility, Superhuman Reflexes, Master At All Combat

Godpack
-Anak: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability
-Bella: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability, Berserker Mode, Double-Bladed Axe Hand
-Blitziana: Lightning and Storm Manipulation, Mace
-Loga: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability, Flame Manipulation, Invulnerability to Conventional Means (body made of flames)
-Luminor: Superhuman Strength, Master Swordsman, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat, Divine Powers
-Riger: Hyper Awareness, Advanced Technology
-Zefra: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability, Superhuman Speed



Alrighty then, that was an undertaking. Now, looking at the lists of abilities, we'll note a few things: firstly, Marvel heroes tend to be skilled at combat, as well as have powers which complement this. Their powers are also highly diverse. In the DBZ grouping, their primary skills use energy form inside the body. This is not inexhaustible in the case of the DBZ group, something which has been seen throughout the series, and it should be noted that very few times have the DBZ cast had to fight large groups of opponents even close to their strength. Whenever fighting, the opponent(s) would either be near their level or their clear superior, before there was a power up or another character came to assist. Namely, the DBZ cast, with no outside assistance, would very likely lose. Further proof of this, I'd present in the form of DBZ: Cooler's Revenge 2, in which Goku and Vegeta were unable to defeat the army of Metal Coolers. It was only after a power up, and them facing off against the core, that victory was in their reach.

With the conditions of facing every Marvel Team of Superheroes, not only are the facing a large group of skilled opponents, many of which have powers at least comparable to their own or close to it, they're going at it with no Senzu Beans, exhaustible energy, and lack of motivation, which is particularly troublesome for Goku, who is very unlikely to kill or even fully challenge someone without seeing their full power.

So yeah, make of this what you will, I'd love some legitimate arguments with serious research. I know I don't delve headfirst into the exploits and make calculations of the power levels and strengths and blah blah blah of each character, but the amount I did with just this took over two hours to look up and post. So take that into consideration, if you feel like insulting me and saying things like "But Goku can punch planets and blow things up and he da bestest, you're stupid." I will bin this thread faster than Quicksilver gets off.

Oops! Forgot to change that!

Oh wait! I already did.

Doesn't seems fair if 3 guys have to face 300+ heroes.

Btw, isn't Quicky Silver solo?

Quote from Matthew Murphy

Oops! Forgot to change that!

Oh wait! I already did.

Doesn't seems fair if 3 guys have to face 100+ heroes.

Its what was stated in the OP. The requirements were set already and Azure simply went with it.

Meh.

Quote from Matthew Murphy

Oops! Forgot to change that!

Oh wait! I already did.

Doesn't seems fair if 3 guys have to face 300+ heroes.

Btw, isn't Quicky Silver solo?

This is the shit that gets people cut. And I didn't list Quiksilver as fighting, I was making a joke. Also something to get you cut. That aside, Quiksilver has been a member of a team before, possibly several depending on what sources you wanna use.

Quote from Matthew Murphy

He was. Not anymore right, mate?

Not eligible.

One post. I am one post away from binning this thread.

Oh just bin the thread already. It's obvious that he never meant to have a logical argument from the getgo.

This is why I don't waste my time arguing in VS Topics like this. Much too grand a scale. Little to no serious assumptions. Anything goes.

Quote from Matthew Murphy

I don't read, I ask.

THIS^ is the basic thesis of this thread. Matthew will just continue to sideswipe you with evasive answers. Sorry to say, you've wasted your time mate.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, because some others have offered some forms of realistic arguments, and I'd like to give them a chance to rebut me. But if I deal with anymore "can't read" or "my characters auto win" posts, then yes, I am instantly binning.

Quote from Hewitt

Oh just bin the thread already. It's obvious that he never meant to have a logical argument from the getgo.

I didn't plan on arguing, I plan on reading the arguments.

Pretty interesting when you have two sides debating while you read the amazing things they can come up with.

I just give a title and the people will do the rest.

I am just the mastermind.

Quote from Hewitt

Matthew will just continue to sideswipe you with evasive answers. Sorry to say, you've wasted your time mate.

Is it a waste of time trying to defend your statement? Azure did something back there while you throw in irrelevant stuff. At least he did something, what did you do, Hewitt?

Azure did made some point back there and I'm still interested on what others will say about his biase.

wth man, Azure's post was unbiased. He simply laid the groundwork for both sides and presented that Marvel's side has the upper hand. It was all fact nothing made up.

I also don't understand how Quicksilver cant be part of this. Just because he was part and no longer is does not make him eligible? Did you give a specific timeframe to where we could get the heroes from? What universe they are? 616? Ultimate? Nothing. You simply gave us vague things to work with in the Marvel multiverse and we could plainly say that every universe can participate. Parallel versions of villains that are superheroes could join in and wreck the competition. That makes the group more than just 300+. Marvel even created counterparts of the Justice League in the Incursions Series. Superheroes? Yes. Can we add them, pretty much since they're MARVEL.

With DBZ, I can say only a little. The highest level of their saiyan is not canon. Can we add it? It wasn't noted. Do they have seeds to equalize the fight perhaps? Not said as well, so we can only assume which is bad if were trying to determine which side wins.

Give us constrictions, limitations, things we can work with rather than vague, ambigious things. You even changed the OP to give a fighting chance to the DBZ group when Azure just made his post pertaining to the original version of your post.

I'll answer your questions once I got on my computer.

Quote from Azure Kite

Alright, I'm going to tackle this head-on as an unbiased party:

To begin, this is heavily in the favor of Marvel, despite Matt's rampant fanboyism. Clearing the air there, that's who would win in this. No real debate, but I'll proceed to explain why. To begin, let's look at the conditions of this match up:


The contestants are 3 vs many. Very, very many. I'll be properly listing the sides:

DBZ Kai
-Goku
-Gohan (we'll assume Adult Gohan)
-Vegeta

Every Marvel Superhero Team
Here's the list of all 347 of them.

Now, for the sake of proving a point, I'll take 5 teams at random and discuss them, and go over the DBZ Saiyans picked as well, so we can have something to compare besides that massive list vs 3 people.
-Skrull Kill Krew (consisting of Ryder and Riot)
-Immortal Weapons (consisting of Bride of Nine Spiders, Dog Brother #1, Fat Cobra, Prince of Orphans, and Tiger's Beautiful Daughter)
-Warbound (consisting of Elloe, Kate Waynseboro, Korg, and No-Name)
-Deadpool Corps (consisting of Deadpool, Headpool, Dogpool, Kid Deadpool and Lady Deadpool)
-Godpack (consisting of Anak, Bella, Blitziana, Loga, Luminor, Riger, and Zefra)

This has now adjusted the analysis from a 3 on Good God Look At That Number, to a somewhat more manageable 3 vs 23. Now, a brief run down of all their abilities and whatnots (Word of Warning: This is not every goddamn listed technique, it's as many as I feel need to be recognized; not every single type of punch or kick or grab or blah blah blah needs to be mentioned for the DBZ characters):

-Goku: Ki Blast, Invisible Eye Blast, Destructo Disk, Kamehameha Wave (and variations of such), Solar Flare, Homing Energy Wave, Saiyan Aura Wave, Energy Spirit Ball, Spirit Bomb (and variations of such), Afterimage, Flight, Instant Transmission, Kaio-Ken (and its variations), Golden Dragon Fist, Super Saiyan (and its variations, excluding God) and Ki Detection.
-Gohan: Flight, Ki Blast, Ki Manipulation, Masenko (and its variations), Gekiretsu Madan, Tenma Defense, Special Beam Cannon, Golden Dome Attack, Kamehameha Wave, Super Explosion Wave, Blaster Meteor, Full Power Energy Barrage Wave, Full Power Energy Blast Volley, Telekinesis, Energy Barrier, Ki Detection, Super Saiyan (and variations), Ultimate Form.
-Vegeta: Bang Beam, Big Bang Attack, Blaster Meteor, Destructo Disk, Dirty Fireworks, Energy Palm, Exploding Wave, Face Slap, Final Burst Cannon, Final Crash, Final Explosion, Final Shine Attack, Finger Beam, Galaxy Breaker, Galick gun (and its many variations), Hellzone Grenade, Ki Blast, Meteor Burst, Photon Bomber, Saiyan Energy Attack, Super Energy Wave Volley, Shine Shot, Spirit Breaking Cannon, Super Big Bang Attack, Super Energy Wave Volley, Super Explosive Wave, Afterimage, Flight, Energy Barrier, Ki Sense, Telekinesis, Super Saiyan (and its variations).

The abilities mentioned were all obtained via the DragonBall Z wiki, if anyone wants to verify it. Onto the Marvel cast....

Skrull Kill Krew
-Ryder: Shapeshifting (including guns with live ammunition), Telepathy, Teleportation, Cloaking, Heat & Flame Resistance, Healing Factor, Superhuman Reflexes, Super Strength.
-Riot: Armored Insectoid Transformations, Martial Arts Master

Immortal Weapons
-Bride of Nine Spiders: Spider Manipulation (a horde lives within her), Martial Arts Master, Spiked Collar w/Extending Spikes
-Dog Brother #1: Empathy Link w/Brothers, Tactician, Master Swordsman
-Fat Cobra: Super Strength, Super Endurance/Durability, Super Regeneration, Lightning Manipulation, Potential Immortality, Energy Binding, Superhuman Speed, Knowledge of Human Anatomy
-Prince of Orphans: Gaseous Transformation, Plane-Hopping (can exist in same realm as the dead), Potential Immortality, Martial Arts Master
-Tiger's Beautiful Daughter: Superhuman Strength (particularly in mouth), Master Martial Artist, Master Iron Fan Practitioner

Warbound
-Elloe: High Physical Conditioning, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat
-Kate Waynseboro: Rock and Tectonic Manipulation
-Korg: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Durability, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat
-No-Name: Brood powers, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat, Master at Armed Combat

Deadpool Corps
-Deadpool: Superhuman Healing Factor, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Agility, Superhuman Reflexes, Master at All Combat, Fourth Wall Breaking, Teleportation Device, Holographic Projector, Pocket Space Full of Weapons
-Headpool: Immortal Zombie Head
-Dogpool: Immortality from Ultimate Regeneration Factor
-Kidpool: Superhuman Healing Factor, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Agility, Superhuman Reflexes, Master at All Combat, Fourth Wall Breaking, Twin Lightsabers
-Lady Deadpool: Super Regenerative Factor, Superhuman Stamina, Superhuman Agility, Superhuman Reflexes, Master At All Combat

Godpack
-Anak: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability
-Bella: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability, Berserker Mode, Double-Bladed Axe Hand
-Blitziana: Lightning and Storm Manipulation, Mace
-Loga: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability, Flame Manipulation, Invulnerability to Conventional Means (body made of flames)
-Luminor: Superhuman Strength, Master Swordsman, Master at Hand-to-Hand Combat, Divine Powers
-Riger: Hyper Awareness, Advanced Technology
-Zefra: Superhuman Strength, Superhuman Endurance/Durability, Superhuman Speed



Alrighty then, that was an undertaking. Now, looking at the lists of abilities, we'll note a few things: firstly, Marvel heroes tend to be skilled at combat, as well as have powers which complement this. Their powers are also highly diverse. In the DBZ grouping, their primary skills use energy form inside the body. This is not inexhaustible in the case of the DBZ group, something which has been seen throughout the series, and it should be noted that very few times have the DBZ cast had to fight large groups of opponents even close to their strength. Whenever fighting, the opponent(s) would either be near their level or their clear superior, before there was a power up or another character came to assist. Namely, the DBZ cast, with no outside assistance, would very likely lose. Further proof of this, I'd present in the form of DBZ: Cooler's Revenge 2, in which Goku and Vegeta were unable to defeat the army of Metal Coolers. It was only after a power up, and them facing off against the core, that victory was in their reach.

With the conditions of facing every Marvel Team of Superheroes, not only are the facing a large group of skilled opponents, many of which have powers at least comparable to their own or close to it, they're going at it with no Senzu Beans, exhaustible energy, and lack of motivation, which is particularly troublesome for Goku, who is very unlikely to kill or even fully challenge someone without seeing their full power.

So yeah, make of this what you will, I'd love some legitimate arguments with serious research. I know I don't delve headfirst into the exploits and make calculations of the power levels and strengths and blah blah blah of each character, but the amount I did with just this took over two hours to look up and post. So take that into consideration, if you feel like insulting me and saying things like "But Goku can punch planets and blow things up and he da bestest, you're stupid." I will bin this thread faster than Quicksilver gets off.

Really, accurate. Even for me ( A fucking huge db fan as you may already know), it's not shame to admit that these 3 don't stand any realistic chance against ALL marvel heroes. Without, as said from Azure, senzu beans, lack of motivation, + without the Kami to assist them in finding the enemy's weak points or without the dragon balls. The sayians can potentioally beat Marvel if they're given like 1000 years lifespan, and spend billions of years in the time chamber training. As we already know, no matter how unreachable the goal is , the sayians always get stronger and stronger by training and close to death situations (as said a saiyans power grows with an incredible amount if he is deadly wounded), it's almost as if they strength can grow unlimitedly. However, as they are now, they cannot defeat all marvel heroes.


Loops looks like Matthew Murphy changed the topic (wasn't paying attention). However, even with the information from the Kami and senzu beans I don't see them winning (they may have a chance if we include Battle of Gods and/or GT (gogeta ssj4..)) . As I see it, they're only chance is if they use the Dragon Balls, however, I don't see Goku using the dragon balls for something like immortality or unlimited power.

If you want a more interesting debate on this VS, you should make a more realistic battle, for instance something like 3v3.