Quote from Externus

If you don't know, the Government is much bigger than you think. It's not a group of people who like to just do whatever they want for money or something. The Government has a Central Bank which is operated by faceless giants who hide behind the curtains and pull the strings. They control the US Dollar worth, just as they purposely dropped gas prices for a bit and began jacking them up immediately.

You'd think we own our Government just because we essentially control it given enough time. From overcoming prohibition to gay marriage to legalization of marijuana, we seem to control our Government however we want. Except, the thing is, we all don't know we're mindless sheep who arrogantly think we have a say in our lives when in reality it's being run by people who have more digits in their balance than Constitutional Amendments you can name. Just like how PAC's can run elections, they run our lives through money. They control how much money you have and they control Congress through poisonous graft. It's not our Government. It's these faceless giants who control the strings with money.

The US had the best Government that has ever, and most likely, will ever exist when it was first founded. Things began to turn sour as soon as Andrew Jackson came along and riled up the crowds into parties, and it's turned to shit as soon as the Gilded Age came along.

Once again, I want to know how this seperates the US Government from anyone else. Are you saying Bankers and billionaires don't run other countries at all?

I'll wait and see if Exilement thinks all the previous Illuminati bullshit is relevant to the conversation or not, or if he removes it from the thread.

It wasn't, I just deleted it. back on topic.

externus, if you're referring to the recent dip in gas prices, there's a completely rational economic and political explanation for why it happened, I can't take you seriously if you honestly think that was just some 'faceless giant' temporarily cutting the cost of gas for no identifiable reason. how delusional do you have to be to believe the central bank directly controls how much gasoline costs?

I'm all for being skeptical of authority but come on.

Does anyone remember a South Park episode many years ago where they theorize that sometimes it is directly in the Government's interests to keep these rabid and baseless anti-government conspiracy theories going?

Think about it. If you think that Governments are not really accountable to the people and they are all controlled by nameless forces of corporate power, then essentially you are removing any sort of accountability that the public should impose on their politicians. Revolutions will be quelled because people convince themselves that the real problem is some form of faceless evil that cannot be overcome through democratic means.

On the other end of the conspiracy spectrum, we'll have people who say the Government is SO powerful that they can pull off inside-jobs (like the ludicrous 9/11 theories and the fake moonlanding theories) which fools people into thinking that politicians are geniuses and that all governments are not essentially chaotic, beauracratic cesspools of mostly inactivity and pencil pushing (which they are in reality).

So these anti-government propagandists are basing doing more good to enhance the tyranny of a government rather than defeat it. Because under the guise of truth-seeking, we go ahead and believe any ridiculous theory presented for us. Under the guise of critical thinking, we actually encourage theories that are destroying our own capacity for such thoughts.

Quote from Nish

Once again, I want to know how this seperates the US Government from anyone else. Are you saying Bankers and billionaires don't run other countries at all?

I'll wait and see if Exilement thinks all the previous Illuminati bullshit is relevant to the conversation or not, or if he removes it from the thread.

I don't think I buy his argument that "faceless giants control everything", but I also don't agree with this "everyone else does it it's okay" argument you keep making.

Quote from Preserve

I don't think I buy his argument that "faceless giants control everything", but I also don't agree with this "everyone else does it it's okay" argument you keep making.

The argument isn't so much "everyone else does it, it's okay," so much as it is "everyone else does it, why only judge the U.S.?" Because when you get down to it, if everyone else does it, why not hold them all to the same scrutiny? Singling out the U.S. is an unfair bias that blinds you to the potential, and quite likely, problems and other unfavorable behaviors other governing bodies are subject to doing.

Quote from Preserve

I don't think I buy his argument that "faceless giants control everything", but I also don't agree with this "everyone else does it it's okay" argument you keep making.

That isn't my argument at all. Azure was absolutely spot-on with his response to you, so I won't get into it too much. If you want to have a debate about how "Governments" and "politicians" are often flawed from a practical standpoint, then we might find ourselves on the same page. However, I directly oppose this notion that it is a specific American issue and not a global one.

I stand against Americans when they point out certain benefits of a democracy or freedom, and make it sound like only America gives its citizens those benefits. Similarly, I stand against the people who make accusations against America for problems that plague the rest of the world equally.

Quote from Nish

Once again, I want to know how this seperates the US Government from anyone else. Are you saying Bankers and billionaires don't run other countries at all?

I'll wait and see if Exilement thinks all the previous Illuminati bullshit is relevant to the conversation or not, or if he removes it from the thread.

I think there's too much in play for any one of us to try grasp it entirely. When there's so much logical possibility for America to plan 9/11 to usurp oil from the East or have a few handfuls of people who literally control how much value you have in your bank account, it's difficult for anyone to say this country is shittier than that country solely because we don't even know enough. But the problem is there is ambiguity. And if you notice, trying to fix these problems only results in backlash. I'm not saying Obama is perfect in any way, but there's a 50% split of people who want machine gun turrets attached to their roofs and then there's some who want homosexuals to rule the world. There's this split between the people which puts anybody who ACTUALLY cares about the country's survival and future in a difficult spot.

Your government can only do so much for you if you guys don't even like each other. When a country is so split to the point where we can't make a decision on anything because there's somehow a backlash from the Republicans and Liberals no matter what, your government is useless. And it's at this point where a corporation can become a middleman again and exploit this again.

Quote from Exilement

It wasn't, I just deleted it. back on topic.

externus, if you're referring to the recent dip in gas prices, there's a completely rational economic and political explanation for why it happened, I can't take you seriously if you honestly think that was just some 'faceless giant' temporarily cutting the cost of gas for no identifiable reason. how delusional do you have to be to believe the central bank directly controls how much gasoline costs?

I'm all for being skeptical of authority but come on.

Of course there is and I'm NOT a proponent of everything being so big illuminati conspiracy, but I'm just merely pointing out that there are people who control our lives and have way more power than the US Government. But what you do need to realize, there IS a huge faceless giant corporation thingamajig behind it all. Our Government gets its money from the Central Bank. The Central Bank controls our dollar worth as it's completely arbitrary. And this Central Bank is funded by giant corporations and people. Of course, their role is nothing more than to silently reap the benefits so they'd never blatantly come out and obliterate the stocks with their unrelenting wealth. The silently overtime jack up prices, support certain presidents and buy out Congress.

This again is why I said the US Government WAS perfect, as the Founding Fathers lamented the idea of a Central Bank and political parties. Political parties were essentially created by Andrew Jackson by his propaganda-like campaign of him being this person who represents the people and all that bogus. From there, we've segregated ourselves unbelievably beyond regards of political belief.

My side in this argument is just that America was the greatest country to have ever existed, where upward mobility was possible and the good of the nation was genuinely considered at some point. Debt mattered and the welfare of the citizens was accounted for as they were the runner-up's for the throne. But now are systems are grafted through the blatant fact that people like Mitt Romney and the Bush's have their families royally embedded into our government, of course, through money.

America's Government started out strong and personally, on paper, it works beautifully. But when you have so many room for middlemen to stick themselves into places, you get a shadey government. Which is why a lot of places face the same problems us Americans do, just in different ways. Poverty and starvation in places such as India rise from restrictive governments who are grafted to the extent where the police rob citizens with their badges. Here in America, we're forced to eat so we can stuff every dollar we have into the pockets of people who can outsource jobs. It's the same principle that's in play in all corrupt countries, except in America, we've found a way to subvert it.

I don't believe you have any idea of what you're actually talking about.

Or at least I sure as hell don't.

You need to put more effort into clearly and concisely making your statement.

None of that made any sense

Quote from Externus

I think there's too much in play for any one of us to try grasp it entirely.

Correct. But clearly we can have a better grasp on things if we consider things like facts and logic, rather than bizarre leaps of intuition.

Quote from Externus

When there's so much logical possibility for America to plan 9/11 to usurp oil from the East or have a few handfuls of people who literally control how much value you have in your bank account, it's difficult for anyone to say this country is shittier than that country solely because we don't even know enough.

Dear lord, what a marvelously obtuse statement. So much logical possibility? Are you kidding me? You actually think that it makes logical sense to plan something INTENTIONALLY so risky and easily exposed to invade the Middle East? All they would have needed is to fabricate the death of a few 'diplomats' in Iraq and they would have raced away to the Middle East. The problem with 9/11 conspiracies is that they assume that any government is smart enough or secretive enough to pull something off like this. The smallest hitch, the slightest dissident would have thrown a wrench into EVERYTHING. Why does it make logical sense for a Government to do that when there are so many EASIER ways to fake justifications for invading the Middle East?

You have also clearly not read any of the previous pages, and our discussion over the fact that the war in the Middle East wasn't entirely motivated by oil. Oil happened to be one of the great benefits of the war. But there were clear and ample reasons to invade aside from it. I will again leave it to our moderators Exilement or Raptor to take a call on whether you are just posting random shit without reading any of the previous pages.

Quote from Externus

But the problem is there is ambiguity. And if you notice, trying to fix these problems only results in backlash. I'm not saying Obama is perfect in any way, but there's a 50% split of people who want machine gun turrets attached to their roofs and then there's some who want homosexuals to rule the world. There's this split between the people which puts anybody who ACTUALLY cares about the country's survival and future in a difficult spot.

Your government can only do so much for you if you guys don't even like each other. When a country is so split to the point where we can't make a decision on anything because there's somehow a backlash from the Republicans and Liberals no matter what, your government is useless. And it's at this point where a corporation can become a middleman again and exploit this again.

You realize you've just described ANY two-party system in the world, yeah? I'm almost embarrassed for you when you again make it sound like an American problem. I used to live in a tiny, tiny Island called Sri Lanka where pretty much the SAME thing happens. The country is split on many issues. I now live in India, even more populated than the United States. Guess what? SAME problem there too.

Your whole point about governments not being to help is also bull. You're making it sound like there are two clear groups of Americans and they have absolutely NOTHING in common. You don't seem to understand how the basics of Democracy works. It doesn't matter if you're split 51-49. You all elect a guy president, and then he does whatever shit he thinks is right by working with Congress. You are making it sound like a Civil War is happening right now and there is no middle ground anywhere. I'm increasingly starting to feel like you are either reading this off a book, or copying it from some website and you're influenced by some conspiracy nut in real life. Why? Because your fundamental facts are so exaggerated and very, shall I say, dinner-party-conversation-ish.

Again, pray explain how Corporations step in and become middlemen, in ways that are unique to the United States government? You've just made a blank statement without any facts or even deductions.

Quote from Externus

Of course there is and I'm NOT a proponent of everything being so big illuminati conspiracy, but I'm just merely pointing out that there are people who control our lives and have way more power than the US Government. But what you do need to realize, there IS a huge faceless giant corporation thingamajig behind it all. Our Government gets its money from the Central Bank. The Central Bank controls our dollar worth as it's completely arbitrary. And this Central Bank is funded by giant corporations and people. Of course, their role is nothing more than to silently reap the benefits so they'd never blatantly come out and obliterate the stocks with their unrelenting wealth. The silently overtime jack up prices, support certain presidents and buy out Congress.

You're right on one count. Large financial bodies do control several political interests. What you've utterly failed to grasp is that this is how it works in all developed countries and the larger developing ones too. They may not call it the Central bank but they do the same thing under other names. Lets also not jump to conclusions here and make it sound like those guys make all the decisions. They have a lot of clout, but they are not puppet masters. They dictate policy, but they are not dictators. You fail to realize that "Faceless corporations" are also, at the end of the day, controlled by real human beings who squabble among each other and have diarrhea when they eat tacos. Politicians frequently manipulate them, and play them against each other too. Its all a part of politics. Please don't let someone fool you into an image of a bunch of old guys smoking cigars dictating notes to Obama while he nods humbly.

Quote from Externus

This again is why I said the US Government WAS perfect, as the Founding Fathers lamented the idea of a Central Bank and political parties. Political parties were essentially created by Andrew Jackson by his propaganda-like campaign of him being this person who represents the people and all that bogus. From there, we've segregated ourselves unbelievably beyond regards of political belief.

My side in this argument is just that America was the greatest country to have ever existed, where upward mobility was possible and the good of the nation was genuinely considered at some point. Debt mattered and the welfare of the citizens was accounted for as they were the runner-up's for the throne. But now are systems are grafted through the blatant fact that people like Mitt Romney and the Bush's have their families royally embedded into our government, of course, through money.

America's Government started out strong and personally, on paper, it works beautifully. But when you have so many room for middlemen to stick themselves into places, you get a shadey government. Which is why a lot of places face the same problems us Americans do, just in different ways. Poverty and starvation in places such as India rise from restrictive governments who are grafted to the extent where the police rob citizens with their badges. Here in America, we're forced to eat so we can stuff every dollar we have into the pockets of people who can outsource jobs. It's the same principle that's in play in all corrupt countries, except in America, we've found a way to subvert it.

Yes, the Founding Fathers had very good intentions. But do you really think American would have become a giant superpower if it didn't wholeheartedly embrace Capitalism and become a commercial titan? I'm not sure where you got your idea on India from, because it is completely incorrect. The rise of poverty and starvation were because of imperialist robbing by the British Raj, and the lack of infrastructure that they left behind to rebuild. It is overpopulated, un-irrigated and there is dense lack of education. But those problems are now being rectified because of the same political will that you just accused of causing these problems in the first place.

It doesn't matter how many families are embedded in the government as long as democracy still works. Malaysia, Singapore, India, China, almost every emerging superpower in the world has politicians who have family roots firmly embedded in the political system too. But so what? In a Democracy, they will still be subject to a mandate from the masses. In places like China where democracy isn't much of a concept, the same family corruption is so rampant that it makes the US seem paltry in comparison.

In conclusion, you've completely failed to explain WHY this is uniquely American or how America alone has subverted this. Just saying things like "But in America, we've subverted it" or "the corporate middleman is imposing his will on us" or "we're forced to eat to feed other people in other countries" isn't enough. I can also make up random facts without any logical backing and make my argument seem valid. You have to give us facts and details and reasonable conclusions. Not a completely vapid rambling devoid of any reasoning.

I'd say a big difference between America and other countries is that the U.S.A. is a global superpower, and has more responsibility than other powerful countries. A nation like North Korea would never get away with having even close to the amount of power the U.S. has. A huge misconception about the U.S. government is that it's nothing but a bunch of men in suits laughing about ruling the world and collecting taxes and screwing over everyone. Our government is a huge system, and everyone involved in it has their own interests and intentions, but at the end of the day to them it's nothing but a job to them. They will make decisions more beneficial to the individuals the make up the government and the powerful Corporations that run the country than to the common citizen. I see it as an efficient system at keeping the rich people rich and keeping the poor people poor.

Look at the countless bunkers and escape plans reserved for everyone in the government and all the rich folk in case of nuclear war. In an extreme situation you can see the true nature of everyone, if a nuclear war were to ever occur then screw the ordinary citizens, they're all going to die. Meanwhile, everyone who's been running country will be safe inside a bunker with enough resources to last generations.

So I'd say it's blatantly obvious the government of the U.S. is filled with corruption, but again, the same thing can be said about plenty of other governments. The key difference is that the U.S. claims to stand for the common citizen, "with freedom and justice for all" when in the end that's a tactic the government uses to gain support these days. They pacify their citizens with media while they do whatever is in their best interest. Not to mention, again being a huge global influence, their decisions make a much larger impact than a government's decision of a smaller country.

a) USA is not the only global superpower. It is one of them. Also you don't become a superpower by being hipster and huggy. You become that way by exerting power and control. I agree with your general statement that the US has more of a responsibility to behave rationally than some other countries. But my point is this: IF any other country wielded the same power as the United States, are you telling me they would handle it with any more sensitivity than the US Government?

b) Keeping rich people and poor people poor are unfortunately a part of the capitalist enterprise. I am shocked that anyone would say it is an American problem. All of Asia is going through this problem now, and are slowly overcoming it by building the middle class. The US is much better off in this regard.

c) Bunkers and escape plans in every country are reserved for the rich and powerful. Show me one bunker in the world where it says "For peasants and farmers only." Again, not a uniquely American problem and hence irrelevant to this debate.

d) You say the U.S claims to stand for the common citizen with freedom and justice for all. I again challenge anyone to show me a single developed democracy that DOESN'T make this claim. ALL democracies have this "By the people, for the people" stance. All countries use their media to pacify the citizens. Name me one major democracy that doesn't.

e) Yes, the USA's decisions have a much larger impact than one of a small country, but how does that make them any less moral and more corrupt than other governments? If Bhutan had the USA's power, it would behave the same way. If Catalonia had the same power, it would behave the same way. ANY government with that kind of power WOULD behave this way. It just so happens that currently the United States is the most prominent country in the global arena and hence they are behaving that way. It is not a question of whether the US Government is corrupt. Its about all governments and the fierce nature of 'power' itself.

Quote from Nish

a) USA is not the only global superpower. It is one of them. Also you don't become a superpower by being hipster and huggy. You become that way by exerting power and control. I agree with your general statement that the US has more of a responsibility to behave rationally than some other countries. But my point is this: IF any other country wielded the same power as the United States, are you telling me they would handle it with any more sensitivity than the US Government?

b) Keeping rich people and poor people poor are unfortunately a part of the capitalist enterprise. I am shocked that anyone would say it is an American problem. All of Asia is going through this problem now, and are slowly overcoming it by building the middle class. The US is much better off in this regard.

c) Bunkers and escape plans in every country are reserved for the rich and powerful. Show me one bunker in the world where it says "For peasants and farmers only." Again, not a uniquely American problem and hence irrelevant to this debate.

d) You say the U.S claims to stand for the common citizen with freedom and justice for all. I again challenge anyone to show me a single developed democracy that DOESN'T make this claim. ALL democracies have this "By the people, for the people" stance. All countries use their media to pacify the citizens. Name me one major democracy that doesn't.

e) Yes, the USA's decisions have a much larger impact than one of a small country, but how does that make them any less moral and more corrupt than other governments? If Bhutan had the USA's power, it would behave the same way. If Catalonia had the same power, it would behave the same way. ANY government with that kind of power WOULD behave this way. It just so happens that currently the United States is the most prominent country in the global arena and hence they are behaving that way. It is not a question of whether the US Government is corrupt. Its about all governments and the fierce nature of 'power' itself.

Well personally, I think every government in the world should be fired. It's no doubt in an ultimate sense, no human really should have power over another person. The concept of republic, or any government is corrupt. The only reason a government exists ultimately was to enforce the law. If everyone respected one another then there would be no need for government. You're definitely right that every government is corrupt, in conclusion, the U.S. government is no exception. Unfortunately there is no direct way to solve these problems. Every generation is left with so many unsolved problems that it's making the ultimate goal of harmony in the world impossible. Because people don't really care about the world or the good of humanity, they only care about bettering their own life while others suffer.

Also, while this is a problem in other countries, it's a problem in the U.S. nonetheless. I guarantee you that if the U.S.A. began promoting peace, had less prisons, found environment friendly power sources, and made themselves into a closer utopia, the rest of the world will follow. That's what I'm getting at.

I read everything you said and I think we hold pretty much the same stand on principles. But I think you should read the previous pages carefully. We've all actually agreed upon the fact that governments and politicians are inherently prone to corruption and that ANY government in a position of power would soon begin to turn very destructive. If this debate was about whether all governments were corrupt, then you and I would be completely on the same side. But this debate thread is about whether the US government specifically is guilty of certain flaws that other governments around the world are exempt from. The answer to that is a resounding no. Even if, in practice, the US government does certain things that other countries don't, I would argue that it isn't an 'American' problem but a 'power' problem. If Scotland or Burma had the same kind of power, they would do the same thing.

Quote from Nish

I read everything you said and I think we hold pretty much the same stand on principles. But I think you should read the previous pages carefully. We've all actually agreed upon the fact that governments and politicians are inherently prone to corruption and that ANY government in a position of power would soon begin to turn very destructive. If this debate was about whether all governments were corrupt, then you and I would be completely on the same side. But this debate thread is about whether the US government specifically is guilty of certain flaws that other governments around the world are exempt from. The answer to that is a resounding no. Even if, in practice, the US government does certain things that other countries don't, I would argue that it isn't an 'American' problem but a 'power' problem. If Scotland or Burma had the same kind of power, they would do the same thing.

But one thing you have to consider, is while the U.S. government does negative things, it still has the power to improve the world as a whole. If we actually made peace and love promoted more in mainstream media, and found environment friendly power sources, and fixed the problems, the world will slowly follow. Like a sibling following a big brother. Everyone inherently wants to be happy and the whole world can agree with that, so if the U.S. promoted happiness and peace it could help the world. So in an opposite perspective, while the U.S. isn't responsible for the bad in the world, it is responsible somewhat for lack of good.