Quote from Skeletonxf

Right so back when I had ele I found many starts get completely hard countered by other ones in EvE, making them a real lottery, which you don't want.

Is there any start that isn't hard countered by any other start or at least stands a good chance in any EvE start matchup? Ie is there a way out of this lottery?

Eg
Aggressive earth spam < Fire

Fire start, if opponent has water or air refrain from using this tactic.

If opponent does not have water, get an earth and go for an early charrog.

How can I refrain from using Fire start when I'm only going to find out after I buy my fire? Or do you mean go Fire against waters or airs and use Charrogs for anything else?

How is my fire going to deal with an air?

Quote from Skeletonxf

How can I refrain from using Fire start when I'm only going to find out after I buy my fire?

fire start is still pretty good, if the earth spam comes, charrog and burn dmg will do wonders.

Air + Earth start is the best in short maps.

Quote from TheLegendofKaito

Air + Earth start is the best in short maps.

CAir and earth eco spam beats it.

Quote from Skeletonxf

CAir and earth eco spam beats it.

No it doesn't. I use it and win majority of my matches against a diverse range of players. You send the air in, kill 1 miner, gtfo. Idk if it's just coincidence but I always manage to pull this off. And all the time, my air looks like it has 0 health left but it's still alive. If they get a super early CA, then I'll beat them in the earth spam because I have tower lol


Also when using this, I always send the earth a little forward in case he also air starts. Air vs air, if you target first you win.

tower really doesnt give you the better eco in eve as you dont have any more options than your opponent early on. both paying the same costs and the mana timing and actual miner income seems to affect the game more so. going eco heavy supercedes air start on most maps. castle ya can get away with some things as there isnt much of an answer aside from Castle air. but even then 300 g for a lasting defense as opposed to 400 for a glass cannon that cant really do much in the long run.

Quote from PUMU

tower really doesnt give you the better eco in eve as you dont have any more options than your opponent early on. both paying the same costs and the mana timing and actual miner income seems to affect the game more so. going eco heavy supercedes air start on most maps. castle ya can get away with some things as there isnt much of an answer aside from Castle air. but even then 300 g for a lasting defense as opposed to 400 for a glass cannon that cant really do much in the long run.

That's why I said short map. And if you kill a miner(which is necessary) + take tower, that's more than enough gain. Can't do much in the long run? lol, first dibs on air control..
It's really hard to determine a unit's value later on in EvE as what you make is largely reliant on what your opponent makes

example, in one matchup if I notice he is going for air spam I will opt for cycloids and aim for AoE damage

or if I see he made a V I will make a V to possess his V

What's short map got to do with this? Air start is okay, but if the opponent gets his castle air your air will most likely die. If you position your air to survive the castle air you will not get anything off your assault. After you retreat you will probably have 3 miners, whereas the opponent will have 5 and will be making them in a much faster rate than yours (even if you have tower). But I haven't thoroughly tested this so I could be wrong.

I disagree with the fact that airs can't do much in the long run though. Overall I consider EvE a joke, 3 earth start is basically the best for everything.

Quote from TheLegendofKaito

That's why I said short map. And if you kill a miner(which is necessary) + take tower, that's more than enough gain. Can't do much in the long run? lol, first dibs on air control..
It's really hard to determine a unit's value later on in EvE as what you make is largely reliant on what your opponent makes

example, in one matchup if I notice he is going for air spam I will opt for cycloids and aim for AoE damage

or if I see he made a V I will make a V to possess his V

V isnt even a thing in serious EvE. The priority is to high, along with health of any unit you would attempt to steal. by the time you got anything out of the unit you stole the v would have died 6 times.

In the realm of air dominance. Going early air leaves you with two miners followed by another. if the opponent microes properly you stand a chance of losing that air to the Castle. Cycloids vs airs is auto win. airs cannot kite and most units cannot touch cycloids in eve. So yes, going cycloids makes sense. Infernoes for treeVtree engagements as the meteors give you advantage. In most situations though the first few units you have are the most likely to die if you do not micro well. That air is not very likely to last very long.

@nutsophast
in the long run airs will not be able to compete against an opponent that has begun to create cycloids simply because if the player has reason to go anti-air the opponent facing the cycloids will not have sufficient army to deal with the cycloids such as fires that cant be directly affected. IF they do however they have no other support that will prevent you from running scorps into his fires.
3 earth start is life.

Quote from nutsophast

What's short map got to do with this? Air start is okay, but if the opponent gets his castle air your air will most likely die. If you position your air to survive the castle air you will not get anything off your assault. After you retreat you will probably have 3 miners, whereas the opponent will have 5 and will be making them in a much faster rate than yours (even if you have tower). But I haven't thoroughly tested this so I could be wrong.

I disagree with the fact that airs can't do much in the long run though. Overall I consider EvE a joke, 3 earth start is basically the best for everything.

why do you ignore my post..

I said you can get away with killing a miner

Two scenarios here

Air start vs CAir start + Earth miner
Air start vs 3 Earths into CAir start.

I'll give you that sniping a miner in scenario 2 should win the game. If you fail however, you're out ecoed and you've lost.
In scenario 1, it comes down to the maths. Does a bonus Earth miner outweigh tower in the gold income growth towards another miner?

I don't have ele to do a controlled test anymore, but from general experience I suspect the extra starting Earth outweighs tower gold income due to the massively increased eco growth.

Quote from TheLegendofKaito

why do you ignore my post..

I said you can get away with killing a miner

I did not ignore your post, i was saying you might not get away with killing a miner. However like I said I haven't tested this thoroughly so I am not sure.

@pumu You get cycloids in response, extra airs means more firepower allowing you to support your cycloid. Getting fires in the mix helps too, just get everything as you have only 4 units to que anyway. V I find can help, you can snatch cycloids and clones can provide any melee power needed. It's high priority yes, but you have flash. But personally I think it should be made even less vulnerable.

Scorps will just poison your V half the time and youll be spending waters like crazy to try to keep it alive and if you teleport you no longer have control over my unit making it a plus for the opponent. Cycloids in response to cycloids isnt going to really help you unless you outnumber the opponent with them.
I can simply target the airs themselves as i cast shield on myself tornado sweep the airs.
As long as you have those airs all i have to do is keep making cycloids until they are all gone and at that point i can use them to deal with scorps and use them as a support unit rather than a melee/anti-air