Quote from Azxc

Summary for the TL;DR: You are too noob, I don't even use water healing Kappa
you have to learn how to tree mass

Water Healing is not my problem and we should leave it be, screw you skrubs

Not sure if sarcastic but yeah that's totally my plight lol

Wyz, you're assuming that everybody should know about this water issue. They don't. We only just found out a few days ago.

Its straightforward that an upgrade should be an upgrade. Fire arrows shouldn't suddenly make archers regular arrows do less damage. It's still an issue even if not many people use waters, and you can't turn a blind eye to it because you don't like elementals.

Something is telling me you misunderstood the entire thread, because it's a little like you're stabbing in the dark. Waters before the update were fucked up. But now when buying the upgrade, they get worse when used on more than 5 units. Thats fucked up.

Quote from ArchyBeatz

Considering the fact that I'm damn near unbeatable with Ele i would say my strat is pretty good.

Lol

Quote from Zomar

Wyz, you're assuming that everybody should know about this water issue. They don't. We only just found out a few days ago.

Its straightforward that an upgrade should be an upgrade. Fire arrows shouldn't suddenly make archers regular arrows do less damage. It's still an issue even if not many people use waters, and you can't turn a blind eye to it because you don't like elementals.

Something is telling me you misunderstood the entire thread, because it's a little like you're stabbing in the dark. Waters before the update were fucked up. But now when buying the upgrade, they get worse when used on more than 5 units. Thats fucked up.





Lol

Lol indeed.

Back on topic, I also feel it's very counterintuitive to work like this. I suggest making both iterations of water-heal based on "a health reservoir" to distribute evenly between units in the AoE, just increase the pool for the upgrade.

Quote from WyzDM

Yeah I guess I can do that.

First of all, I don't bother with this upgrade until late game. It's not essential til then. I don't have any good replays of me showing off strong use of that because I really don't want to push the game that far against order, but I have some replays that example general water tec that I still don't see anyone use.

In this replay, I don't grab the upgrade. But what I do utilize is how threatening just a water can be. Note the position it has 3:00-4:00. Also note that around 3:30 I make use of how waters can theoretically teleport. What this is doing is simple. When a water freezes, it still moves in the direction of it running momentum. However, at the start of the freeze, it's location point is moved, yet the animation isn't finished. so yeah, you can anim cancel waters for teleports. It's how you can get around walls and stuff. I also use it to shield attacks, and eventually heal fires. simple

This replay I purchase the upgrade planning to use it eventually on a treature or charrog, but don't need because roflcopter. also note how I don't actually heal that much. cause I don't need it. It's more optimal make units than to heal. Now you'll tell me why they need both. Eles don't with this structure, cause treatures come out so fast and you can pop combinations out of your ass anywhere. So yeah, that's it I guess.

if you guys still don't get it well that's too bad. Not saying that just because I don't use it doesn't mean it's not needed, but your use choices are stupid because you were too centralized on water heals when they were broken.

EDIT: You can't strikethrough anymore? Or am I just dumb.

I understand what you're saying, I see now from your replays that waters can still be useful without healing. I think it comes down to whether you think it's op or not. I do not think it was op or needed that many nerfs, therefore I think the upgrade shouldn't downgrade the ability and the water should heal more effectively, although I don't know how water heal worked or works atm.

Waters need to be balanced, and Wyz has done a good post on that now.
Upgrades also need to be actual UPgrades not DOWNgrades. Situation regardless. If buffing water upgrade is going to bring back charrog mass, then nerf default water heal.

Quote from DragonArcherZ

Back on topic, I also feel it's very counterintuitive to work like this. I suggest making both iterations of water-heal based on "a health reservoir" to distribute evenly between units in the AoE, just increase the pool for the upgrade.

I think this is the best way to resolve the water upgrade issue.

You all talk as if charrog mass is an issue, but it's not. Just use albows with wall support and the charrogs are done. The only way to actually charrog mass is in DM, which we hardly need to care about.

Quote from nutsophast

You all talk as if charrog mass is an issue, but it's not. Just use albows with wall support and the charrogs are done. The only way to actually charrog mass is in DM, which we hardly need to care about.

An actual use for albows? Unbelievable.

Hi there guys.
Its kind of funny how this random dude named Archy, who I hear is a troll, actually brings up a real issue, while nobody else cared to bring it up. I mean, ofcourse we ARE talking about Elementals.
"No issue here" Normally, my reply to that would be for you to go to the roof of a building with a knife, and jump off, cutting your dick in mid air, but since you are a top player and whatnot I guess I'm going to have to be more respectful. The problem, as was mentioned, is the fact the upgrade was supposed to be an upgrade, and not a nerf. Almost like giving blind gate an upgrade making it cost two earths and an air instead of one, and not doing anything else to it. However, that isn't the only problem here. And yes, the CA camp is pretty much unbeatable using Elementals, since they can't heal and you can kite the shit out of them. In a regular game, the units will not be killing each other throughout. There will be times when your army and your opponents are at different places. That's where Chaos their auto heal works. Order goes a step ahead and uses merics, while Elementals have to waste 350 gold for just some namesake health gaining ability.
"Only send them to units that need them" So what you want me to do is make a water for 350 gold and wait for about 15 seconds(don't fry me for this I do not know water spawn time) to send my water to one unit and give it about 10 percent of its health. Obviously the best strategy ever. Even if I get my water in early just for healing, it is pretty damn useless. Yes, Order has unlimited heal in late game. Any smart order player would get merics, from what I've seen. And well, what good is freezing again? Chaos may not have unlimited healing, but it has enough tankiness to not need a lot of healing. NOW, I KNOW CHARROGS HAVE MORE HEALTH. But, a charrog or a jugger? I'd go jugger almost all the time. I pretty much have to get my ass out of anywhere the moment my Charrog loses half its health (cause forward kiting will take a bit more).
"more immunity" Uh what else is immune again.
"but your use choices are stupid because you were too centralized on water heals when they were broken." Bet nobody would complain if ninjas (which are probably the least used order units according to me) or albows or some other underused chaos unit was nerfed to the ground.
"Pop combinations from my ass" I do not even know what I am supposed to say to that. What I am trying to say here is that Elementals need proper healing to last late game, which they should.

"Its kind of funny how this random dude named Archy, who I hear is a troll"

Hattori coming in here with full NaCl and spite. Chill down bro. Also, Archy's been around for years, not the nicest guy but can make some fair points when he's down. #JustArchyThings

I'm gonna proceed to skim the rest of the post with no real substance because when someone starts off with "Normally, my reply to that would be for you to go to the roof of a building with a knife, and jump off, cutting your dick in mid air, but since you are a top player and whatnot I guess I'm going to have to be more respectful." well usually saying you have to be more respectful in the post isn't the best indicator of such.

"You all talk as if charrog mass is an issue, but it's not. Just use albows with wall support and the charrogs are done. The only way to actually charrog mass is in DM, which we hardly need to care about."

That assumes you have time to set up albows. As with most things in OvE, time is of the essence.

Quote from nutsophast

You all talk as if charrog mass is an issue, but it's not. Just use albows with wall support and the charrogs are done. The only way to actually charrog mass is in DM, which we hardly need to care about.

indeed lol

dont know why people say "old water heal = charrog mass"
I treat any players who did lose to charrog mass as bad players

don't say albows , even a magikill with spear wall in front of wall is enough to deal with charrog mass

Quote from DragonArcherZ

"Normally, my reply to that would be for you to go to the roof of a building with a knife, and jump off, cutting your dick in mid air, but since you are a top player and whatnot I guess I'm going to have to be more respectful." well usually saying you have to be more respectful in the post isn't the best indicator of such.

Probably saw it on tumblr and though 'hav 2 includ in next post'.

I dont understand why everybody is going off at a tangent now, referring to the old water? The issue is that the upgrade doesnt work properly, people aren't asking for the old water back. Get your reading game on people, please.

If a water was a weaker meric that healed less than the meric, but worked similar to one, everyone would probably be happy. Seems like a simple solution, similar to order heal. However I am not even going to try to think about the balancing issues and blah blah blah, just throwing it out there that that is always an option.

I thought the empires had to be unique?

hush hush my son, tis already a factor in more than enough ways

You still maining ele Pumu?

Its not a option giving ele a unit that behaves like a meric I main Chaos and I still think that merics should stay unique to order.