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PUMU
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Dec 9, 2015 10:39 PM #1422066
Hi Pumu,

I am stuck at 1.8k ele and I cannot seem to get over 1.9k as my opponents simply turtle into late game (where I cannot do anything) or just out kite my fire elemental in early. I've attempted both tree and charrog pressure but to no avail.

I know you have reached 2.6k with ele, so if you don't mind, I would greatly appreciate any suggestions/tips for elemental

Regards,
SHAD0VV


Basically, I was sent this yesterday. I have replied to him through pm already and am waiting for him to respond to me again in the near future which should be later today, however, I would like to give him multiple perspectives and takes on his endeavors so that he can form his own conclusions in the long run by taking the opinions of not just myself, but also any other good ele players that are out there. Myst tells me there are very few good ele players out there but I think if people gave it a chance and stuck with it, ele can do much more than people give it credit for. Without further ado, bring forth the advice!!
nutsophast

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Dec 11, 2015 5:08 AM #1422336
I'd be glad to help. As of now I'm below 2k from decay but I'm getting back up. Still, I like to think that I have some knowledge about how to play.

Fire start is not very good unless you have godlike micro and can kill the opponent before your low economy starts to bite you in the ass. You can fight second archer but you will sacrifice earths you could be using for miners, further delaying miner production. Greatest chance of success with fire start is castle.

3 earths start is undoubtedly the best for any map. Turn 2 into miners, send one to middle. Usually you'll get pushed back to base. You can stall with earths and buy castle air if it becomes too overwhelming. 4 second que time is great. You can try and sucker the archer into getting close and double tap him with castle air. You'll most likely have more economy than him at that point.

Usually when your opponent turtles, it means you have the advantage. Don't give them the time to get back up on their feet! Charrogs can tank a lot of damage so you can destroy the walls, trees take a little longer, like a siege. The 3 other support combinations are great vs turtles once you learn to use them.

Mid-game builds are really up to you. But don't use charrog + tree. Charrog and tree pressure isn't a good idea, it takes up a lot of resources, population and time. Scorplings are weak against turtles and charrogs aren't much better with their weak melee. Try to go for either charrog or tree with some range unit for the bulk of your army.

Charrog build is weaker since water heal is shit now. But it's usable. You can generally push farther into their frontlines with charrog. Trees require good placement and timing. Just make sure you aren't rooted up in your base the whole game, that's the worst way to use trees. Push up slowly, eventually you'll want to be near their second ring of gold. You'll need good timing though or your trees will get destroyed. Clear the way with support units.

Here's some builds that you can do:http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?86376-Elemental-Setups-by-Pumu

I find that fires aren't great for being a big part of your army composition. Their projectiles are slow and have short range. But they have their uses. If you're using a tree build, chances are the enemy will build lots of swords to chop them down. Burn damage can stop them in their tracks, just a few fires can be good for protecting your tree and units. Their fire balls are armor piercing. They're strong defenders.

Airs are awesome, their lightning bolts come from the sky. You can even target archers hiding behind speartons. 3 lightning bolts can one hit kill an archer, 5 for an albow. Also armor piercing.

Here's my opinion and personal tips about the rest of the support units:

Cycloids: Fast and tanky unit. Like your army's bodyguard. Strong against albows, you can tank for airs or fires and stun them for easy targets. 2 tornadoes are enough to wipe out archers, if you send in a team of cycloids you can sweep a bunch of archers. Protect is useful against shadows, you can use with water heal to minimize the damage your units take. Useful to help trees push forward or vs dangerous units like flyers and insta killers.

Infernos: Personal favorite, UoMD (unit of mass destruction). Meteor upgrades are a must, fire rain is useless without meteors. These do an insane amount of damage and stay on the ground for a long time. Great counter against archers and spellcasters.

Dragon spell is a little useless, but you can use it as a distraction. Or you can trap units, cast meteor rain on one side and dragon spell on the other, they'll have to choose their death. Meteors are also neat to trap units once they garrisoned. You can be more aggressive with charrogs since they can forcefully push forward, heavy damage. With trees you'll have to be more careful.

V: A little pricey, but it's not hard to buy v.You need fast fingers. Possess is nice, don't try to take full control of whatever unit. Try to draw enemy fire on that unit you possessed, so your opponent ends up shooting himself in the foot whether they like it or not. Pretty nice against flyers. Teleport is neat, you can also teleport forward then possess whatever unit. Just make sure you can get out.

Clones are probably my favorite and perhaps the most useful. V himself actually has really heavy melee damage, 2 hit an archer. If you upgrade your clones you can get that same heavy damage. They're very nice to push through, kung fu kick their frontlines and destroy walls with ease. Getting more than one v and cloning them all can have devastating results. You can mix your v in with the clones for maximum melee damage, but you'll have to be ready to get him out.

You can also go around this forum and read posts about elementals to learn. Helped me quite a bit. You can ask me any questions about elementals and I'll be more than glad to reply.
PUMU
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Dec 11, 2015 1:40 PM #1422384
Quote from nutsophast
I'd be glad to help. As of now I'm below 2k from decay but I'm getting back up. Still, I like to think that I have some knowledge about how to play.

Fire start is not very good unless you have godlike micro and can kill the opponent before your low economy starts to bite you in the ass. You can fight second archer but you will sacrifice earths you could be using for miners, further delaying miner production. Greatest chance of success with fire start is castle. Keep it to short maps of at all.

3 earths start is undoubtedly the best for any map. Turn 2 into miners, send one to middle. Usually you'll get pushed back to base. You can stall with earths and buy castle air if it becomes too overwhelming. 4 second que time is great. You can try and sucker the archer into getting close and double tap him with castle air. You'll most likely have more economy than him at that point.

Usually when your opponent turtles, it means you have the advantage. Don't give them the time to get back up on their feet! Charrogs can tank a lot of damage so you can destroy the walls, trees take a little longer, like a siege. The 3 other support combinations are great vs turtles once you learn to use them. Charrogs are your stall/push unit. Don't rely on it to break a turtle that has been setup to a certain extent as it'll die so quickly that you would have been better sending the resources used, into a different unit.

Mid-game builds are really up to you. The builds actually require you to go with at least one type of ranged unit. Preferably, fires with the ability to kite and burn damage shredding armor. Fires can lead to scorch when producing for trees and such. Airs are a bit more situational in sniping priority units if you wish to produce heavy amounts of them. Airs a more very fragile But don't use charrog + tree. Charrog and tree pressure isn't a good idea, it takes up a lot of resources, population and time. the reason for this being true is that you have to spend at least one earth and one fire to make a charrog. Reducing your ranged presence for a melee unit that will hardly add any dps and will only last for so long. Burn damage or poison damage. Take your pick. Scorplings are weak against turtles and charrogs aren't much better with their weak melee. against set-up turtles** Try to go for either charrog or tree with some range unit for the bulk of your army.

Charrog build is weaker since water heal is shit now. But it's usable. You can generally push farther into their frontlines with charrog. Trees require good placement and timing. Just make sure you aren't rooted up in your base the whole game, that's the worst way to use trees. The worst way to use trees can also be the best way to use them. Imo. I never leave my base with my trees. It exposes them to too much from the enemy, that he/she could capitalize on. If my opponent has his miners in close proximity to me or I'm too close to his units in general he could rush my trees with units much more quickly as my scorps will autoRushdown his units or wall(s) without grouping. Which is very bad.Push up slowly, eventually you'll want to be near their second ring of gold. You'll need good timing though or your trees will get destroyed. Clear the way with support units.

Here's some builds that you can do:http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?86376-Elemental-Setups-by-Pumu

I find that fires aren't great for being a big part of your army composition. Their projectiles are slow and have short range. But they have their uses. If you're using a tree build, chances are the enemy will build lots of swords to chop them down. Burn damage can stop them in their tracks, maybe 1-2 fires can be good for protecting your tree and units. Their fire balls are armor piercing. They're strong defenders. Fires can be produced gradually over time. Don't stop at just two lol. The more the better. Just keep a water handy. Your opponent will either be too afraid to rush your trees with the threat of scorch OR the opponent will attempt to feignt rush to make you waste it. In either case, only use the scorch when you see the Swords actually touching your units for the best outcome.

Airs are awesome, their lightning bolts come from the sky. You can even target archers hiding behind speartons. 3 lightning bolts can one hit kill an archer, 5 for an albow. Also armor piercing.
Nice units with speed but very fragile. Use them conservatively if at all.
Here's my opinion and personal tips about the rest of the support units:

Cycloids: Fast and tanky unit. Like your army's bodyguard. Strong against albows, you can tank for airs or fires and stun them for easy targets. 2 tornadoes are enough to wipe out archers, if you send in a team of cycloids you can sweep a bunch of archers. Protect is useful against shadows, you can use with water heal to minimize the damage your units take. Useful to help trees push forward or vs dangerous units like flyers and insta killers. You generally want to use the protect ability on units that will be closest to the fray for whatever reason. Units that this applies to: Ts1+2, V(s), the cycloids themselves if attempting to tornado sweep archers or Rush albows. That's about it. Trees don't need it if you keep a watchful eye for shadow mass and respond appropriately.

Infernos: Personal favorite, UoMD (unit of mass destruction). Meteor upgrades are a must, fire rain is useless without meteors. These do an insane amount of damage and stay on the ground for a long time. Great counter against archers and spellcasters. These units capitalize on the length of the map significantly. Less kiting space for the enemy and a shorter distance to their economy in which both the kiting units/mass/economy are your primary targets. Secondary targets= slow moving units that rely on being still to function. Ie merics.

Dragon spell is a little useless, but you can use it as a distraction. Or you can trap units, cast meteor rain on one side and dragon spell on the other, they'll have to choose their death. Meteors are also neat to trap units once they garrisoned. You can be more aggressive with charrogs since they can forcefully push forward, heavy damage. With trees you'll have to be more careful. Vastolis deals heavy damage and forces movement whilst the meteor rain upgrade locks the position down for whatever area you cast it Down upon. Generally directly on or behind where your enemy is to force them to be closer to your units and possibly get clapped with scorch/poison/possess. Meteors can be placed in front of the gate to buy time to destroy the statue and punish them for attempting to run out with anything more than shadows and spears. In the case you know that your opponent is queuing shadows; you should be baiting the opponent into attacking you first with high priority units like V. Closing the game is usually the easiest with a few V's in conjunction with your fires/tree/water comp as it conforms the best to most order meta

V: A little pricey, but it's not hard to buy v.You need fast fingers. Possess is nice, don't try to take full control of whatever unit. Try to draw enemy fire on that unit you possessed, so your opponent ends up shooting himself in the foot whether they like it or not. Pretty nice against flyers. Teleport is neat, you can also teleport forward then possess whatever unit. Just make sure you can get out.
Best units to posses vs order:
Merics
Spears
Shadows
Magikill


Clones are probably my favorite and perhaps the most useful. V himself actually has really heavy melee damage, 2 hit an archer. If you upgrade your clones you can get that same heavy damage. They're very nice to push through, kung fu kick their frontlines and destroy walls with ease. Getting more than one v and cloning them all can have devastating results. You can mix your v in with the clones for maximum melee damage, but you'll have to be ready to get him out. Avoid sending the actual v into the fray unless your absolutely sure that your opponent lacks the ability to kill him at a moments notice.

You can also go around this forum and read posts about elementals to learn. Helped me quite a bit. You can ask me any questions about elementals and I'll be more than glad to reply.


Thanks for responding nutsophast! Now if we can just get more perspectives.
nutsophast

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Dec 11, 2015 2:37 PM #1422394
Sadly there aren't that many different perspectives for elementals. Mostly people just want elementals to be reworked. I'm not convinced since no one has given a coherent argument/reasons. It does need some tweaking.

I didn't really mean stop specifically at 1-2 fires, but my point was just to get a few fires and not too much. I'll just edit that in.

Accidental double post.
PUMU
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Dec 11, 2015 4:01 PM #1422406
That's what I plan to change in the long run. I hope to help other players on their journey into bettering their ele via in depth analysis of their current gameplay and what they can do when faced with an opposing army comp. eventually, helping them to conform to any situation they should face via their own quick decisions.

Most users think all ele can be is tree mass, charrog mass, or something similar.

Ele has the most flexibility in my mind for responding to the opponent based on their comp. what's that? Your opponent is archer massing via spear/archer/sword/meric comp? Don't worry we have cycloids with their tornado ability which also sets you up for dealing with potential albows!

Your opponent is attempting to turtle due to their inability to deal with the micro of your units picking off key units? Transition into your V and keep him down where they belong. All ya need is a precise finger and knowledge of what benefits you get from possessing what.

Being harassed early game by swords en mass? Don't worry our earths can now stall into an AOE defense that deals DOT. We can also transition into fires to shred those melee units further!!

Oh look you ran into another ele player. How quaint. Prepare for tree/fire/inferno comp. DOT, range units that tear through armor, infernoes to weaken your enemy scorps. Waters are love water are life. Keeping these and infernoes handy determine the game. Not as random as people think. The less you send to fight for tower the better for early game. Mid game= mo trees mo betta
Upgrades for scorps, Eco influence, inferno presence, and waters are your main methods of playing EvE.
Airs can be dealt with via cycloids as the airs can't kite XD. Earths and waters deal with charrogs. V's gain little benefit from possessing most units but can deal a slight bit of additional damage for the two seconds that they manage to remain alive. Clones can be a very... VERY... Small factor but it's better to not risk it with so many scorps walking around and no walls
SHAD0VV

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Dec 11, 2015 6:53 PM #1422427
Thanks for the multiple perspectives, PUMU and nutsophast--this has helped my ele macro a good amount :D. Unfortunatly I cannot play elementals at the moment because of an OOS glitch but I practiced against the ai's and it has helped me improve quite a bit

I have a question: would you recommend going for a CA while building up economy, and stalling, or do you think I should try (if possible) to use waters and earths, fighting for tower against swords and archers? Castle air seems the safest at the moment but it seems like a water plus several earths could work too, with proper micro.
PUMU
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Dec 11, 2015 7:25 PM #1422428
That depends entirely on you. It's very risky as your opponent could easily overwhelm you and have you retreat again to the same situation if you don't use your units properly. With proper micro however you can do some funny stuff.
For example:
http://youtu.be/KYpqa6RtqmQ

Against an opponent who plays it safe it'd be a better option to stall into your Eco. Keeping in mind that you don't always need the castle air to keep his units away. Sometimes just queuing earths can be enough to stall into a heavier economy before going into CE. Then from there you fill up the first row of gold and any weak earths you have will be morphed into mana. Your first tree coming out shortly after filling first row and moving the tree forward to protect second row whilst still covered from melee units by the CE. Your scorps will be primarily targeting the enemy archers. Hit any one archer two times and let it run back into the deathblossom if you can.
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Dec 14, 2015 5:24 PM #1422893
The biggest issue with Elementals is that they're more gold dependent than any other empire, making it terrible late-game.
PUMU
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Dec 14, 2015 6:57 PM #1422900
Considering one would reach Max pop rather quickly and that due to this the gold and mana will go unspent this is hardly an issue if you don't lose your entire army at one point in time. 450g and below are the costs of your units and it only costs 100 mana for combinations. Macro is a thing.
nutsophast

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Dec 15, 2015 2:56 AM #1422983
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Basically this.


I hate this counter-argument, makes no sense and applies to any other empire. As order or chaos, if you have no gold you can't make stuff. Late-game you basically don't die and keep resources in reserve (it'll end up piling up if you max out anyway).
Denpants

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Mar 1, 2016 5:11 AM #1440153
Elemental Empire is all about pressure. Air elemental lightning bolts and treature's constant scorpling production are meant to be placed near the second row of gold so the enemies miners are stuck and will be insta-killed by 2-3 air and 3 trees. I've used this strategy a lot, it takes a really long time but if you can defeat the army the enemy has produced, then its a guarenteed win as their eco will be weak from having so few miners. I really like the Infernos because the fire rain is like an area-denail system that if you stack 2 then it can kill plenty of miners. The dragon can also be placed near the entrance of the castle, if you can reach it and your unit can survive, to sweep up 2-4 miners bringing their gold back to the castle or even an entire army as they try to garrison. Finally, for DM get a V straightaway, right after you buy towerspawn and cap the tower with an earth. Use the clones and possess the strongest unit the enemy has. I usually pick the spellcaster, if there are none I pick a tank or a heavy ranged
PUMU
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Mar 1, 2016 3:11 PM #1440233
Correcting a few things:
Elemental MUST play pseudo passively and conformitively. You risk losing a massive chunk of your army of you do not consider the opponents army composition over his economy. You are correct in saying that pressure is still a factor. Trees allow us to get map control however cannot do the job alone and has to be supported by other units like fires. I personally tend to play with 3 trees, 5 (at the minimum) fires, at least one water always available for scorch, at least 1-2 V's to manipulate my opponents army to best suit my comp. Cycloids to punish over reliance on lower tier units. Infernoes have their uses but are much too susceptible to ground based pressure and as a result, using these guys requires you to already have quite a significant lead. If you have the lead like that, you have so many other end game options that an inferno can tend to be lack luster.
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