These are basically things for elementals that need to change. These are problems which I think may be holding elementals back. Feel free to brainstorm, point out other problems or tell me why these aren't problems.

Minor infernos issues: I don't understand why meteors can't hit air units. Fists on the ground, puddles and all mage spells can hit air units, why can't meteors? Does it diminish the cycloid too much? Would it be op? Vastolis may need some buffs too. It doesn't hit that hard, 30 second cooldown with a DoT that doesn't work.

Bombers: Elementals has no way of stopping bombers from swooping in and taking 2 miners.

Waters: The heal is simply pathetic, what's worse is that even when you do get the upgrade, it could heal even less than before. Revert to the old healing system and increase the amount. Shinobi escape from freeze is a bit silly. I'm not sure if it'll be balanced if shadows have no way of escaping though.

Charrogs: Its abilities are a bit underwhelming. Burn is okay, I wish it did a bit more though. The dig is only used to spam w which is a shame. I think both of these or at least burrow should be changed. Maybe it can go under walls?

And apparently charrogs have too much health. Maybe they can buff its abilities in exchange for some health. Has a weak melee damage which isn't a big deal. Think it should work as a kind of crowd control tank and not a dps unit.

Blind gate: nuff said.

Also Airs are too easily sniped and Fires can't hit flying units or units running away from them. Also Earths are just too slow for fighting in the early game. Oh an deathblossum is just stupid to play against but is really good anti bomber. Nerf its damage to exactly 1 bomber hp increase the missile cast/fire spees and reduce the cooldown?

Nerfing deathblossom leaves early-mid game archers out of check for ele.

Charrogs are a bit too tanky.

Infernoes pool doesn't hit air units because it leaves chaos almost no option if it hit flying units.

I agree bomb rush is an issue.

I am already currently working on ideas to resolve many of these issues via suggestions however no one here seems too inclined to give a shit about ele and would rather stray away from threads such as these for the fear of debate and/or lack of knowledge regarding the empire in general. I do agree, in the same breath, that it is still worth posting in an area where all can see and contribute if they should happen to wish to do so.

Pumu I think we should a) leave this thread for problem listing rather than stray into game balance and b) don't worry about the knock on effects of a single nerf/buff because we're not suggesting single nerfs/buffs - we're suggesting many at once which should compensate somewhat for each other.

I don't see why we shouldn't discuss balance, the problems with elementals are closely related to the balance of the empire.

For your first post, airs can be tanked so they can't be sniped that easily. They are also one of the best sniping units, alongside shadows and medusa. Fires don't have to forward kite like archers, they have different purposes. It is a bit wonky against flyers though.

Earths also act as the only source of economy, they aren't just melee units. Still, if controlled correctly you can use them very well as melee units.

Root isn't stupid to play against if you simply heal weak archers. Getting a meric is another great strat to counter.

@pumu I agree with a lot of your points. About meteors though, juggers, marrows and medusa can deal with an infernos that's bothering their wings. I don't see how it "Leaves chaos with almost no option".

I think we should auto-lock threads with

-"elementals"

-"eles"

-"broken"

-"unbalanced"

-"solution"

in the title, and we'd be all set.

Quote from nutsophast

I don't see why we shouldn't discuss balance, the problems with elementals are closely related to the balance of the empire.

For your first post, airs can be tanked so they can't be sniped that easily. They are also one of the best sniping units, alongside shadows and medusa. Fires don't have to forward kite like archers, they have different purposes. It is a bit wonky against flyers though.

Earths also act as the only source of economy, they aren't just melee units. Still, if controlled correctly you can use them very well as melee units.

Root isn't stupid to play against if you simply heal weak archers. Getting a meric is another great strat to counter.

@pumu I agree with a lot of your points. About meteors though, juggers, marrows and medusa can deal with an infernos that's bothering their wings. I don't see how it "Leaves chaos with almost no option".

@skele
I only listed problems and stated that I was doing something about it elsewhere so....

@nut

Consider this then, if you don't understand what I mean.
How many jugs does it take to kill an inferno quickly?
How available are marrows and medusa at a moments notice? Especially when being pushed back to gate where the inferno should be created? How hefty is the price for both medusa and marrow? Ele does still have the option of creating waters to keep all 3 of the listed options at bay by freezing them as they emerge from the gate. This renders them useless as they have no other method of supporting the units with meteor pools keeping everything else in check


@wyzDM
Or! And I just thought about this... We could keep everything in a constructive tone and stop posting things like what you keep bringing to threads like these. You get nothing done. We will continue to make threads like these to draw attention to things that NEED to be addressed at some point.
Do you like ele having so many issues? Considering you are of the main ones saying how you hate the way ele is, I would think, that you would contribute your input. If not, kindly take yourself elsewhere.

Yeah, ele is broken...

www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay11476751&version=2.29

In some aspects yes. Thus, we seek to fix the issues so that every empire has equal chance of winning more so in some aspects for all 3 and less so in the same regard.
I'll review the replay later on and see where you and/or your opponent went wrong.

I'd love to see Whyz influence and knowledge put to better use. I remember when Burn was broken whz brought this up suggested a solution CJ acted.

I Argree thou when he says Ele needs the same UI as order and Ele as they will help balance a lot

Oh? What's that? Someone brought up an issue and it changed? Funny stuff man. Lol

Give me a moment and I'll edit this post here with some suggestions and studies of what myself and others have compiled together.

Quote from nutsophast

I don't see why we shouldn't discuss balance, the problems with elementals are closely related to the balance of the empire.

For your first post, airs can be tanked so they can't be sniped that easily. They are also one of the best sniping units, alongside shadows and medusa. Fires don't have to forward kite like archers, they have different purposes. It is a bit wonky against flyers though.

Earths also act as the only source of economy, they aren't just melee units. Still, if controlled correctly you can use them very well as melee units.

Root isn't stupid to play against if you simply heal weak archers. Getting a meric is another great strat to counter.

I'm not saying don't discuss game balance at all, I'm saying leave this thread to listing problems and don't stray off topic at all from that. I'm already too late.

Indeed airs can be tanked but only by possessed giants (unreliable as hell) and cycloids (not very tanky anymore) and neither are available options when buying the first few airs in the early-mid game. Yes Charrogs can stand over archers but that's simply unworkable when you're moving across the field because Order won't let you approach that closely with your Charrog in the first place.

I'm aware that Earths can work well as melee units but against good opponent micro they can't land hits. I'd say this is thus still a problem.

Root also stuns which allows scorp dives. Now I quite like scorp dives after root - I think it's actually quite a nice bit of Ele micro with having to target with scorps in good timing and selecting the Tree first, but I'm not convinced that with its current damage being such a good execution on an archer that it's very healthy for the matchup with Order vs Ele.

Anyway @pumu that's good

Having a bit of difficulty accessing my doc due to some weird iOS glitch. A bit more time to figure that out.

I prefer to root after two hits from scorp to guarantee my kill and not waste the small amount of mana or at least risk the possibility of such.

You can anim cancel with earths to lock units effectively if you know your earth timing. You can also cross over a unit to catch units that try to cross over you in return to flee or forward kite expecting a g command.

EDIT:
finally got it to load
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-44ikVhTF0UGHHAajKPSa0W28ElyOT3p671stwi_loA/mobilebasic

This is only what I have so far... I'm still talking with others over at et and on skype

Quote from Skeletonxf

I'm not saying don't discuss game balance at all, I'm saying leave this thread to listing problems and don't stray off topic at all from that. I'm already too late.

Indeed airs can be tanked but only by possessed giants (unreliable as hell) and cycloids (not very tanky anymore) and neither are available options when buying the first few airs in the early-mid game. Yes Charrogs can stand over archers but that's simply unworkable when you're moving across the field because Order won't let you approach that closely with your Charrog in the first place.

I'm aware that Earths can work well as melee units but against good opponent micro they can't land hits. I'd say this is thus still a problem.

Root also stuns which allows scorp dives. Now I quite like scorp dives after root - I think it's actually quite a nice bit of Ele micro with having to target with scorps in good timing and selecting the Tree first, but I'm not convinced that with its current damage being such a good execution on an archer that it's very healthy for the matchup with Order vs Ele.

Anyway @pumu that's good

If my charrog is in front it'll tank the airs, I usually don't have problems with that. If the archers are hitting over it I retreat and re-position my units. Most of the time I can snipe an archer before my units take serious damage.

Basically what pumu said, you rely on baiting and timing. Animation cancelling too if you miss.

With the range the archer would usually be at I'm not sure scorpions would be able to reach the archer in time, but I don't know. I'll make sure I try this out. Also if using trees, this is one of the only ways to keep the number of archers down.

If you don't touch the archers, you have successfully bought yourself time nontheless and simply need to note that the opponent has used up that pop space in the grand scheme. Two cycloids and one v work wonders if your opponent persists with his comp. followed by more v and support