The Theory of Evolution

Started by: Delphinus19 | Replies: 275 | Views: 9,674

Dragon⁰⁷⁷
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Feb 25, 2008 1:33 AM #85293
Quote from Delphinus19
Pagan, I see how people believe in it, I'm just not entirely convinced by it. Most of its elements are unproven.

You obviously have only seen the parts of it that any joe schmoe would know about. Ash just had to explain that mutations are what make species evolve. C'mon.
BloodFruit
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Feb 25, 2008 2:14 AM #85298
I have a hard time believing that mutations could benefit the organism.

According to Darwin the strongest will survive.

Well, seeing as that most mutation will most likely weaken the organism, how it will survive, let alone reproduce, is very doubtful.

I have also yet to see one of these "missing links".

Without these I don't see how you can prove any evolutionary theories.
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Feb 25, 2008 2:39 AM #85301
I stick with it because there is more evidence for it than against it. Come up with something better, and I'm there.
Dragon⁰⁷⁷
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Feb 25, 2008 4:50 AM #85355
Quote from BloodFruit
I have a hard time believing that mutations could benefit the organism.

According to Darwin the strongest will survive.

Well, seeing as that most mutation will most likely weaken the organism, how it will survive, let alone reproduce, is very doubtful.

I have also yet to see one of these "missing links".

Without these I don't see how you can prove any evolutionary theories.

It's not really a mutation the way we usually see it, is more of survival of the fittest. The fastest monkeys are more likely to live and reproduce, therefore the next generation will be slightly faster than the parent generation, and so on.
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Feb 25, 2008 5:42 AM #85360
Quote from Dragon077
It's not really a mutation the way we usually see it, is more of survival of the fittest. The fastest monkeys are more likely to live and reproduce, therefore the next generation will be slightly faster than the parent generation, and so on.


Well they won't necessarily be faster. But they will be faster than the normal monkeys, if both of their parents (which survived through speed) were faster.

I don't understand where you're coming from that mutations are generally bad. Did you never watch X-Men?
pagan
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Feb 25, 2008 8:01 AM #85378
Quote from BloodFruit
I have a hard time believing that mutations could benefit the organism.

According to Darwin the strongest will survive.

Well, seeing as that most mutation will most likely weaken the organism, how it will survive, let alone reproduce, is very doubtful.

I have also yet to see one of these "missing links".

Without these I don't see how you can prove any evolutionary theories.


it's not about number of mutations... and your very statement supports evolutionary theory. if an organism does have a bunch of mutations that would "most likely weaken the organism" then it will not "survive, let alone reproduce." thus, natural selection at work.

other organisms may get genetic mutations that make them a tiny bit more effective. if that organism has a 5% better chance at surviving and reproducing, that still means it is "defeating" (being selected over) 5% of its fellow species members (this is a really simplified way of looking at it but it's hard to verbalize otherwise) and will therefore pass on its hereditary material on to the next generation (which will, we assume, also have a 5% better chance at surviving).

obviously you can't really quantify this, but that's the idea. tiny benefits allow a gradual domination of certain traits over others.

i don't really see how this is possibly refutable. we see it every day in bacteria, there's some real trouble with them evolving to be resistant to medication (because maybe just a few of those billions of bacteria in the patient's body had some sort of protein that prevented penicillin from working, those survivors reproduce and reproduce and then those are the only type of bacteria in the patient: evolution)
Delphinus19

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Feb 25, 2008 10:17 PM #85436
Okay, evolution tries to explain the existence of life by natural means only. They state that; Life arose by its self, life forms slowly change into all the species we see today, and all of this requires several billion years to work.

In 1859 Louis Pasteur proved that life cannot spontaneously generate. The rate of mutation which we see now in the genome, would take more than 4 billion years for the variety of life we have now to generate. Evidence of a young earth is abundant.

Dr. Henry Morris and Dr. Duane Gish emphasized that Evidence of upward evolution is not found in the fossil record, it only shows the extinction of species. No transitional forms are found in the fossil record either, only full developed systems. The law of entropy does not allow upward evolution to occur.

Some elements are unstable - their nuclei have a combination of protons and nuetrons which wont stay together, slowly particles are emitted by the nuclei to make the atoms more stable, the rates of emission seem to be constant.

Evolutionists theorize that the entire earth was once molten rock, and that the earth cooled and hardened over millions of years. Yet radioactive halos from polonium can only be explained by having the "pre-Cambrian" granite of the earth hardening in less then 3 minutes.
Po-210 radiohalos in jurrassic, triassic, and eocene formations make it appear that these layers were formed under same conditions, not million years apart.

Astronomers estimate that a star in our galaxy goes super nova every 100 years. Yet there are only 265 sumper nova in our galaxy.

With each pass of the sun, a comet becomes smaller, 1986's haley's comet was hardly visible. Evolutionists say that the comets come from the "Oort cloud" somewhere past pluto, bt comets cant last that long.

The average depth of sediment on the ocean floor is 400 meters. At the rate of erosion, it would take 12 million years to accumulate exactly that much. Evolutionists say that continents formed 3 billion years ago.

I'll have more in a second.
Delphinus19

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Feb 25, 2008 10:32 PM #85439
At the present rate of erosion, rivers dump 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean each year. At this rate, the oceans cannot have existed for more then 42 million years. Evolutionists say that the oceans are 3 billion years old.
They counter this by saying that the rivers would have been depositing less sodium, but no theory can explain the build-up at present past 62 million years.
A current flowing through the earth's core causes it to decrease and the magnetic feild to dissipate. The rate of decrease is such that the feild should not have existed in the last 3 billion years, or 20000 years ago, the feild was unexplainably strong.

Biological Material breaks down faster then required by evolutionary explanations. Scientists have recovered intact DNA in insects encased in amber dated at 250 million years ago. Soft tissue was found in a dinosaur bone. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683

helium forms as radioactive elements decay. He is the smallest molecule, one atom. It should not remain trapped in mineral crystals if crystals are many millions of years old. Yet we find helium in crystals that should have leaked out helium long ago.

Evolutionist say that humans existed 185000 years ago, and bones can stay intact for 200000 years. Only a few thousand skeletons have been found.
There should be more stone age skeletons found then there have been.

If man evoleved 185000 years ago, why did agricultre begin less then 10000 years ago?

If man evoleved 185000 years ago, why did man wait to record events of history until about 4000 years ago?

The end!
Big Bang
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Feb 25, 2008 10:54 PM #85442
Quote from Delphinus19
Okay, evolution tries to explain the existence of life by natural means only. They state that; Life arose by its self, life forms slowly change into all the species we see today, and all of this requires several billion years to work.

In 1859 Louis Pasteur proved that life cannot spontaneously generate. The rate of mutation which we see now in the genome, would take more than 4 billion years for the variety of life we have now to generate. Evidence of a young earth is abundant.
Give me evidence that the earth is young. There is even more evidence that the earth has been here for billions of years. Lemme hook you up with some.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History of Earth . Also, if you ever heard of the theory that the world was once one continent? There is alot of backing on this theory, some even visible. Who the hell say that the Earth is young, the bible? Prove me wrong, or prove the bible right.


Dr. Henry Morris and Dr. Duane Gish emphasized that Evidence of upward evolution is not found in the fossil record, it only shows the extinction of species. No transitional forms are found in the fossil record either, only full developed systems. The law of entropy does not allow upward evolution to occur.

Another paragraph with a bunch of crap and no backing. How come the law of entropy even proves this? Infact, it proves it wrong. As we became more perfect, we began to evolute in gradually smaller and smaller degrees.

Some elements are unstable - their nuclei have a combination of protons and nuetrons which wont stay together, slowly particles are emitted by the nuclei to make the atoms more stable, the rates of emission seem to be constant.

Whoop de do. What do you want to prove with this?

Evolutionists theorize that the entire earth was once molten rock, and that the earth cooled and hardened over millions of years. Yet radioactive halos from polonium can only be explained by having the "pre-Cambrian" granite of the earth hardening in less then 3 minutes.
Po-210 radiohalos in jurrassic, triassic, and eocene formations make it appear that these layers were formed under same conditions, not million years apart.

I can talk chemist bullshit too! Jack Hills, on Australia, has detrital zircon with ages >4000 Ma. Contrary to you, I have evidence to support my bullshit!
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~valley/zircons/Wilde2001Nature.pdf


Astronomers estimate that a star in our galaxy goes super nova every 100 years. Yet there are only 265 sumper nova in our galaxy.

What a crock of shit. Do you even know what a supernova is? A supernova is the explosion of a star. There are millions and millions of identified stars in our galaxy and let's not say beyond. All of them will eventually become supernovas. You have again, no backing to support this.

With each pass of the sun, a comet becomes smaller, 1986's haley's comet was hardly visible. Evolutionists say that the comets come from the "Oort cloud" somewhere past pluto, bt comets cant last that long.

Short range comets apparently come from from the Kuiper belt behind Neptune, long range comets from the Oort cloud behind Pluto. Short range are barely visible. Long range actually do ORBITS around the sun. Comet Haley has been visiting us for over 600 years (Proven by written testaments of older generations), meaning that it has done over 80 orbits around the sun. Stop trying to pull facts out of your ass.

The average depth of sediment on the ocean floor is 400 meters. At the rate of erosion, it would take 12 million years to accumulate exactly that much. Evolutionists say that continents formed 3 billion years ago.

I'm not keeping this shit up anymore. Before spitting out bullshit, give proof or shut up. I want exactly where did you get this formula, why can you prove it, and from which oceanic trench that is taken from.

I'll have more in a second.


You don't know what the **** are you talking about. I recomend you to get the **** out of here.

EDIT: And your second post is so ****ing stupid I won't even answer it.

If man evoleved 185000 years ago, why did agricultre begin less then 10000 years ago?

Man could easily get what he wanted from nature. It wasn't until he realized he could make his own stuff when he became sedentary and started cultivating, and it's 50000 years, not 10000.

If man evoleved 185000 years ago, why did man wait to record events of history until about 4000 years ago?

No one has ever thought of writting until then since humanity was really separated from eachother and you could tell everything orally, so there was no need to keep record of it. And it's 8000 years, not 4000
Cory
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Feb 25, 2008 10:54 PM #85443
Personally I am a supporter of Darwins theory as well as thousands of other people. It just makes sense and it is logical with at least sem-proof backing it.
Delphinus19

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Feb 25, 2008 11:22 PM #85446
Big bang, here are a few sites that i got inforamtion from.
www.icr.org
www.halos.com
www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/surveys/snrs/
www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1009-9271/5/2/007
heres one on carbon dating: www.malone.edu/erodd/n160c14coal.htm

Also, check up on the Paluxy River.

Now, i will take the comments from Big Bang in order of how he said them.
If you read all of it in entirety, my posts were mostly proof of a young earth. And I tried to stay away from the bible because i knew this was going to be the reaction, I'm not doing this from a religious standpoint, Purely scientific.

On entropy. The spontaneous (the unaided or undirected) tendency of matter is always towards greater disorder -- not towards greater order and complexity as evolution would teach. This tendency towards disorder that exists in all matter can be temporarily overcome only if there exists some energy converting and directing mechanism to direct, develop, and maintain order.

That ones about the next couple paragraphs.

My thing was about polonium, not about uranium, and don't call chemistry bullshit.

Thats the freaking point! they will all eventually become supernovas, given enough time. NOT ENOUGH TIME HAS PASSED!

the figure is 24 x 10to the 9th tonnes/year, and you can find the 400 meters your self.

it took man 175000 years to realize that?

again, same answer.

Also, Big Bang, I tried to be civil in this who thing, and you come in swearing and pulling just as much shit out of your ass as you think i did. So either be civil or stop de-evolving.


P.S. Most of the things I posted were to Ash, since he has been nice and actually knows how to debate.
Big Bang
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Feb 26, 2008 12:31 AM #85473
Quote from Delphinus19
Big bang, here are a few sites that i got inforamtion from.
www.icr.org
www.halos.com
www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/surveys/snrs/
www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1009-9271/5/2/007
heres one on carbon dating: www.malone.edu/erodd/n160c14coal.htm

Also, check up on the Paluxy River.

Now, i will take the comments from Big Bang in order of how he said them.
If you read all of it in entirety, my posts were mostly proof of a young earth. And I tried to stay away from the bible because i knew this was going to be the reaction, I'm not doing this from a religious standpoint, Purely scientific.

On entropy. The spontaneous (the unaided or undirected) tendency of matter is always towards greater disorder -- not towards greater order and complexity as evolution would teach. This tendency towards disorder that exists in all matter can be temporarily overcome only if there exists some energy converting and directing mechanism to direct, develop, and maintain order.

Why the hell are you using thermodynamics on evolution? Evolution is not an actual thing, it's a theory. Same way I can't apply physics on words, you can't on theories.

That ones about the next couple paragraphs.

My thing was about polonium, not about uranium, and don't call chemistry bullshit.

Don't do bullshit with chemistry then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiohalos
Ahem.

Thats the freaking point! they will all eventually become supernovas, given enough time. NOT ENOUGH TIME HAS PASSED!

It has passed. The existance of black holes, neutron stars and nebulae (Which come to form when supernova's explosions dissipate) proves that more supernovas have existed. There are far more supernovas that you mention anyway.

the figure is 24 x 10to the 9th tonnes/year, and you can find the 400 meters your self.

it took man 175000 years to realize that?

It took man 1000 years to realize that there was really no need for religion or racism. Totally plausible. As men became more of a thinking being, he realized more stuff. We did start as monkeys jumping around, then eventually started making ourselves elemental questions like why does grass grow? From curiosity, humanity was born. If you can disprove that, i'll give you a prize.

again, same answer.

Ditto

Also, Big Bang, I tried to be civil in this who thing, and you come in swearing and pulling just as much shit out of your ass as you think i did. So either be civil or stop de-evolving.

The problem here is that you keep on pulling facts out of your ass. I don't. If you really have a problem with written swears, find advice.

P.S. Most of the things I posted were to Ash, since he has been nice and actually knows how to debate.

P.S.S This is a public forum


If you don't believe on evolution, then what then? Don't disprove evolution, prove your theory.

Also, Google is messing with yoru brain.
Ash
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Feb 26, 2008 1:14 AM #85481
The laws of thermodynamics don't apply to living things.


I'll get back to this thread later.
pagan
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Feb 26, 2008 2:28 AM #85500
Quote from Delphinus19
Okay, evolution tries to explain the existence of life by natural means only. They state that; Life arose by its self, life forms slowly change into all the species we see today, and all of this requires several billion years to work.

In 1859 Louis Pasteur proved that life cannot spontaneously generate. The rate of mutation which we see now in the genome, would take more than 4 billion years for the variety of life we have now to generate. Evidence of a young earth is abundant.


louis pasteur had nothing to do with evolution, that's completely out of context. he proved that microbes don't grow from static material which is obvious now. no one is claiming that life "spontaneously generated."

there have been experiments in which biological molecules like lipids and proteins (which could easily arise on their own, just collections of elements that are attracted to one another anyway) were rocked about in water, like they would have been in a wavey ocean, and they spontaneously formed little lipid capsules (our cell membranes are made of lipids) with proteins sticking out of them.

stuff like that makes it pretty clear that life could have arisen from simple molecules.

Dr. Henry Morris and Dr. Duane Gish emphasized that Evidence of upward evolution is not found in the fossil record, it only shows the extinction of species. No transitional forms are found in the fossil record either, only full developed systems. The law of entropy does not allow upward evolution to occur.


entropy has nothing to do with this. entropy just refers to chemical processes, not vast biological change. this is like trying to prove that flying an airplane is impossible by quoting the theory of gravity.

transitional forms would have died out relatively quickly, maybe preventing them from really showing up on the fossil record. evolutionary development isn't totally a process of "constant, gradual change" and it isn't totally a "step by step" process, it's a combination.

Some elements are unstable - their nuclei have a combination of protons and nuetrons which wont stay together, slowly particles are emitted by the nuclei to make the atoms more stable, the rates of emission seem to be constant.

Evolutionists theorize that the entire earth was once molten rock, and that the earth cooled and hardened over millions of years. Yet radioactive halos from polonium can only be explained by having the "pre-Cambrian" granite of the earth hardening in less then 3 minutes.
Po-210 radiohalos in jurrassic, triassic, and eocene formations make it appear that these layers were formed under same conditions, not million years apart.


this is only vaguely related to evolution. i have no clue what radioactive halos are or what you're talking about, but they don't seem to pertain to this debate so i don't care.

here's a refutation of it anyway, thanks to big bang's post: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

Astronomers estimate that a star in our galaxy goes super nova every 100 years. Yet there are only 265 sumper nova in our galaxy.


again, what does this have to do with evolution? there are plenty of explanations for this anyway.

With each pass of the sun, a comet becomes smaller, 1986's haley's comet was hardly visible. Evolutionists say that the comets come from the "Oort cloud" somewhere past pluto, bt comets cant last that long.


wow, the comet was "hardly visible..." i guess that means it was tiny and it was never massive and... i don't even know what you're trying to say. this is a terrible argument for something, can we talk about evolution a little bit?

The average depth of sediment on the ocean floor is 400 meters. At the rate of erosion, it would take 12 million years to accumulate exactly that much. Evolutionists say that continents formed 3 billion years ago.


yeah, conditions on the earth have been exactly the same since the world began, so the rate of sediment formation would be constant. and an average doesn't have that much weight in this case anyway. wouldn't that be including places like mariana's trench or whatever, which would have like maybe one inch of continental sediment, versus the coast of new jersey which probably has like 3,000 miles of it?

At the present rate of erosion, rivers dump 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean each year. At this rate, the oceans cannot have existed for more then 42 million years. Evolutionists say that the oceans are 3 billion years old.
They counter this by saying that the rivers would have been depositing less sodium, but no theory can explain the build-up at present past 62 million years.


i don't understand what you're saying, how does the rate of sodium deposition define how long the oceans could have been around? there are so many other factors at work here in "ocean existence" this argument is ludicrous. (the previous statement can be said about almost all of these.)


A current flowing through the earth's core causes it to decrease and the magnetic feild to dissipate. The rate of decrease is such that the feild should not have existed in the last 3 billion years, or 20000 years ago, the feild was unexplainably strong.


once again, why are we even talking about this? evolution isn't a theory that attempts to explain the exact age of the earth. and that "current" (current of what? what are you ****ing talking about?) is probably not constant. i don't know what to say to counter this, there is so little information. how is this even an argument?

Biological Material breaks down faster then required by evolutionary explanations. Scientists have recovered intact DNA in insects encased in amber dated at 250 million years ago. Soft tissue was found in a dinosaur bone. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683


what? how fast is required by "evolutionary explanations?" what does the DNA thing and soft tissue have to do with this? what are you talking about?

helium forms as radioactive elements decay. He is the smallest molecule, one atom. It should not remain trapped in mineral crystals if crystals are many millions of years old. Yet we find helium in crystals that should have leaked out helium long ago.


it depends on the half life of the "mineral crystals," it's perfectly reasonable to assume helium in really old crystals. and maybe we just have a different definition of molecule but the smallest element is hydrogen, it's just a proton and an electron whereas helium is two protons and two electrons.

also, if we are finding helium in crystals, it means it has leaked out. do you understand the concept of radioactive decay? helium atoms are emitted by larger elements breaking into smaller elements. so if we're finding any helium in an old thing, it means that there has been decay.

Evolutionist say that humans existed 185000 years ago, and bones can stay intact for 200000 years. Only a few thousand skeletons have been found.
There should be more stone age skeletons found then there have been.


wow this is the worst argument so far. it's not even saying anything... so we haven't found that many really really old skeletons... this is like saying stars don't exist because we've only observed a fraction of them.

If man evoleved 185000 years ago, why did agricultre begin less then 10000 years ago?

If man evoleved 185000 years ago, why did man wait to record events of history until about 4000 years ago?


actually this is the worst argument. is anyone claiming that man came to be in his present state 185000 years ago? some kind of evolutionary ancestor of humans as we know them today may have existed at that point, but obviously humans didn't possess the current capabilities they do at this point, that apparently took 175000 or so years of evolutionary development.

what's the point... you seem desperate to misinterpret stuff, make strawman arguments, latch onto any lame pseudoscience that verifies your claims... if you just look at the theory itself, it's obvious.
Jeremy
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Feb 26, 2008 2:53 AM #85505
Jesus ****ing hell.

Looks like you beat my old super wall of text post. =0