Quote from Zed

You've made your point, but I think that the feeling that your child has been murdered by your ex-lover is a little more traumatic than abdominal scarring. Maybe that's just me.

Probably just you... Do you really think that the female is cold to the fact that a possible child is lost? A lot of women are torn apart by the idea of having chosen themselves over a possible child. Why not make it a little harder for them and say it's their fault too when daddy commits suicide...

Frankly I don't even see the point in how a father has any leverage here. In your vision the father goes trough more severe mental trauma? What the hell are you smoking?!

Quote from Zed

You've made your point, but I think that the feeling that your child has been murdered by your ex-lover is a little more traumatic than abdominal scarring. Maybe that's just me.

Who are these guys? They need to man up and realise we got unlimited ammo :)


no point in crying over spilt fetus.

Quote from Kaas

Probably just you... Do you really think that the female is cold to the fact that a possible child is lost? A lot of women are torn apart by the idea of having chosen themselves over a possible child. Why not make it a little harder for them and say it's their fault too when daddy commits suicide...

Frankly I don't even see the point in how a father has any leverage here. In your vision the father goes trough more severe mental trauma? What the hell are you smoking?!

Surely if it's going to cause trauma to both people then it's even less of a reason to abort. If they didn't really want to abort the foetus then obviously they had a very good reason for needing to do so. If there is a good reason then by all means do it.

I'm not saying the father goes through more trauman in an abortion than the mother. I'm saying that the father goes through more trauma in the abortion than the mother goes through in childbirth.

Quote from Zed

Surely if it's going to cause trauma to both people then it's even less of a reason to abort. If they didn't really want to abort the foetus then obviously they had a very good reason for needing to do so. If there is a good reason then by all means do it.

I'm not saying the father goes through more trauman in an abortion than the mother. I'm saying that the father goes through more trauma in the abortion than the mother goes through in childbirth.

That actually makes your argument irrelevant to the debate. Not to mention it's still absurd.

What? I'm saying that if more trauma will be caused by an abortion than a birth you should go for the birth.

Logically, the best route is the one that causes the least suffering.

you dumbass, you think women just love to get abortions? "haha looks like i'm pregnant! welp time to get an abortion, hope they have grape lollipops afterward." that's ****ing disgusting. abortion is a really rough decision, it's difficult on both parents i'm sure. i bet you most women who have gone through it lose sleep over it. once again you're totally eliminating the mother's perspective from your argument, which is the same bullshit all conservative critics of abortion do. "abortion?? but what will the father think!!?!?!" **** you, you don't know shit asshole.

Quote from Zed

Surely if it's going to cause trauma to both people then it's even less of a reason to abort. If they didn't really want to abort the foetus then obviously they had a very good reason for needing to do so. If there is a good reason then by all means do it.

I'm not saying the father goes through more trauman in an abortion than the mother. I'm saying that the father goes through more trauma in the abortion than the mother goes through in childbirth.

You dumb****.

You really think that all abortions are done by women with a perfect life with their husbands and shit?
No of course not you dumbass.
If the relationship between mother and father would even come close to both knowing the babies coming, the chances of ****ing abortion are VERY low.

No, abortion is mostly done by rapevictims or 15-year old teenagers who are too ****ing stupid to get a ****ing condom.
YOU REALLY THINK THOSE WOMEN HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MEN TO HAVE A GOOD HAPPY LIFE WITH THE BABY?!?!

Quote from pagan

you dumbass, you think women just love to get abortions? "haha looks like i'm pregnant! welp time to get an abortion, hope they have grape lollipops afterward." that's ****ing disgusting. abortion is a really rough decision, it's difficult on both parents i'm sure. i bet you most women who have gone through it lose sleep over it. once again you're totally eliminating the mother's perspective from your argument, which is the same bullshit all conservative critics of abortion do. "abortion?? but what will the father think!!?!?!" **** you, you don't know shit asshole.

Quote from Gyohdon

You dumb****.

You really think that all abortions are done by women with a perfect life with their husbands and shit?
No of course not you dumbass.
If the relationship between mother and father would even come close to both knowing the babies coming, the chances of ****ing abortion are VERY low.

No, abortion is mostly done by rapevictims or 15-year old teenagers who are too ****ing stupid to get a ****ing condom.
YOU REALLY THINK THOSE WOMEN HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MEN TO HAVE A GOOD HAPPY LIFE WITH THE BABY?!?!

What the fuck are you two on about?

@Pagan: What are you saying? I understand it's not a fun decision for the woman to get an abortion. That's not the point. If the woman needed to get an abortion for some reason (ie. it posed a severe risk to her health) then by all means she should get an abortion. I am not against abortion at all.

You are saying that women don't like getting abortions. I am saying that some men don't like it when the woman carrying their baby get an abortion. These are not mutually exclusive facts. Either take the time to understand my arguments or stfu and gtfo.

@Gyohdon: Have you read what I'm talking about at all? Again, I am not pro-life so stop treating me as such.

I gave one specific example, a true story, which I will restate here, purely for your benefit:

A woman gets pregnant by way of a man who she has been with for several years. She decides that she wants an abortion. There is no medical reason for her to do so, she is unemployed but not poor, her family would be able to support the child and the man has a job too. The man does not want his child aborted, the two of them have an argument and split up. The father is willing to take the child away from the mother after the birth, raise it, feed it, and never involve the mother in any way unless she wants to be involved.

In this instance the baby has no more effect on the mother after the birth whatsoever, yet the man has no rights at all to stop his child being aborted and this is what I object to.

Oh, and fyi most abortions are not done by rape victims or fifteen-year olds, look at the statistics before you start quoting them.

Quote from Zed

You are saying that women don't like getting abortions. I am saying that some men don't like it when the woman carrying their baby get an abortion. These are not mutually exclusive facts. Either take the time to understand my arguments or stfu and gtfo.

the fact that you think it's a legitimate point in a discussion about abortion is what's offensive. you're making up this hypothetical where a woman is going "ho hum i think i should go kill the baby inside of me" and the man is going "nooo how will i go on, damn you woman! murderess!" and it only serves to obstruct the actual arguments about abortion. if you are "pro choice" then you're very uninformedly so.

Quote from pagan

the fact that you think it's a legitimate point in a discussion about abortion is what's offensive. you're making up this hypothetical where a woman is going "ho hum i think i should go kill the baby inside of me" and the man is going "nooo how will i go on, damn you woman! murderess!" and it only serves to obstruct the actual arguments about abortion. if you are "pro choice" then you're very uninformedly so.

So are you saying that the only thing that matters in instances of abortion is whether or not the foetus has a right to life?

the only thing that matters in instances of abortion is what the mother believes is the correct thing to do. that's why it's called "pro choice." talking about what the father thinks or what the mother ought to think just obscures the issue and minimizes the importance of what i just stated. that's how i see it.

It's the mother's choice. Hands down. Father should have no final say.

Father has final word = Sexism.

You are a racist, sexist liberal, zed. I trol u

I'm not saying that the father has the final word. I'm saying that they both have equal rights in the matter. Saying that the man has no rights whatsoever is just as sexist as saying that it's entirely the mans choice.

And how the hell am I racist? Americans aren't a race, they're a species.