Is Humanity Evil?

Started by: Zed | Replies: 242 | Views: 12,099

Vorpal
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Feb 16, 2010 8:01 AM #547570

Quote from Automaton

So do you not throw away rubbish? Do you not act like the rest of us?

Yes I do very much so, however the difference between you and I is that I will admit that I help kill us all and you don't. You even admitted to taking delight in it, cleaning your house, more like cleaning your accessories, you don't need those things anymore then the next person. What is someone going to do with your belongings in a place where they need food and water? Your belongings have only value to you and people similar to you and there only purpose is to make life more convenient for you so that you won't have to live with the problems. But you do live with the problems everyday of your life if you just took the time to notice all the things that you do wrong. It's more like a clever visage to make you content with living this way denying any thoughts or opinions that try and show you what is right in front of you. You help destroy every one of us just like me, just like tekushikume and zed.
I digress we are alike in the way that we will all die and don't seem to give two shits about what we are doing, but the difference is that I know I am evil and you pretend otherwise.

Automaton
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Feb 16, 2010 8:23 AM #547576

On my netbook now so sorry for any delayed responses.

Quote from tekushikume
Not everbody is like this. Most aren't in my opinion.

i'll point you out where your wrong here.

People kill,it is fact of life,which is why most people don't think it's wrong, but were not going by morals were goring by definition and killing and stealing by the text book of definition it is evil

What I said was right, not EVERYBODY is like this. And where does this "text book" say that's evil?

again were going by text book definition, and many people may not be like that because there live may not have been in danger, but it's an instinct so there for it is still there.

Animals have instincts, do you call them evil? I dont really understand your point here.

no not every kills over a girl or rapes people, yet it still happens. Which means it is and evil intent.

It's evil in your opinion. It may not be evil in others though (it's evil in mine btw). And so what if some are evil by our standards? That doesn't make everyone else evil.

your right a lot of people are not racist now, but they were back then and even before that, and a lot of people are. people make jokes at black people. i bet you do,and if you do no matter if it was a friendly joke you are still being racist.

However, those jokes, as long as not ill-intended, TO ME, are not evil. My whole point is that our perceptions of evil are subjective. Do me a favour and google "subjective".

There are so many people who hate on gays lesbians.as far as i know California has banned gay marriage if that is not prejudice then the definition s has changed

Same points as before.

Quote from Jutsu
Yes I do very much so, however the difference between you and I is that I will admit that I help kill us all and you don't. You even admitted to taking delight in it, cleaning your house, more like cleaning your accessories, you don't need those things anymore then the next person.

First off, I don't believe my throwing away my trash is going to kill us all. I don't think it's doing any good, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be bothered by that.
Second, I was joking when I said about taking delight from it. I'll refrain from making jokes for sake of confusion.

What is someone going to do with your belongings in a place where they need food and water? Your belongings have only value to you and people similar to you and there only purpose is to make life more convenient for you so that you won't have to live with the problems.

And this makes me evil? That's your opinion. To me, as long as I'm living comfortably, I'm happy. Especially as I don't believe the lack of doing anything is going to have a major impact.

But you do live with the problems everyday of your life if you just took the time to notice all the things that you do wrong. It's more like a clever visage to make you content with living this way denying any thoughts or opinions that try and show you what is right in front of you. You help destroy every one of us just like me, just like tekushikume and zed.

Bullshit. Me and every other living creature, even those poor people who throw their shit on to the streets. This is getting off topic, and is starting to not relate at all to the topic at hand.

I digress we are alike in the way that we will all die and don't seem to give two shits about what we are doing, but the difference is that I know I am evil and you pretend otherwise.

I don't think you're evil. I don't think I'm evil. that's my whole point. What you think is evil is different to what I think is evil, and that is why we cannot say that humanity is evil.

Also, tekushikume, if you reply giving examples of what some people do that is considered evil by you, then you are regurgitating the same arguments. It's 7:25 and I haven't been to sleep. I'm going soon.

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Feb 16, 2010 8:28 AM #547577

I don't need any other proof, that's why it's pointless to argue with you, your coming from your point of view which is a biased statement. none of what i said has been biased, which you don't seemed to understand. just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not there. Which is what i get from what your saying. so no none of what we have been talking about has not been getting off topic.

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Feb 16, 2010 8:34 AM #547580

I am just trying to get at the point that every human being contributes to some sort of evil source intentional or not. I don't care whether or not you're living comfortably that is kind of exactly what I want you to say, that you're willing to do what you want to live in comfort your definition of evil asks that they have intent to harm, but you can't tell me a single person doesn't understand what they are doing. Sure your one bottle alone won't cause any trouble but if every other person does it to, it becomes a horrible problem. The problem is that almost everyone has your mentality and will just as easily commit acts of prejudice as well as pollute the planet without thinking twice, just so they can live (Comfortably) Living at the expense of others is selfish and I believe that you do in fact do it intentionally and it proves my point that you and I don't care at all, automation you are evil.
Lack of doing anything? That's not the problem, the problem is that you think your not evil and your willing to defend humanity to the grave that they are going to send you to.

Automaton
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Feb 16, 2010 8:50 AM #547590

Can you not see? You can't say what is evil. Neither can I. Therefore nothing is evil. Evil is a purely man-made concept, like morals. We each have our own views on what is immoral.

Living at the expense of others is selfish and I believe that you do in fact do it intentionally and it proves my point that you and I don't care at all, automation you are evil.

If everyone throws away stuff, by your standards they are contributing. Therefore, if I throw away something and down the line that harms someone, they too knew what was going to happen as they themselves did it. In this sense I think they deserve it. It's hard to explain. The only thing I do that can be considered wrong is putting my rubbish in the bin, what else would you have me do? I do everything in my power to do good. I give to charities, I recycle. The rest is out of my hands. So in this way I am not doing anything with passive intent for eventual harm as you're saying. You sound like a fundamentalist Christian saying "we're all sinners!". As much as I hate to break it to yah, that's only your opinion. I find my life to be very moral and not evil at all. And this conversation is so off topic it's unreal.

I'm going to bed now, at 7:52AM. I hope someone steps in and helps my position while I'm gone, though I doubt they will.

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Feb 16, 2010 8:58 AM #547592

Quote from Automaton
Can you not see? You can't say what is evil. Neither can I. Therefore nothing is evil. Evil is a purely man-made concept, like morals. We each have our own views on what is immoral.

If everyone throws away stuff, by your standards they are contributing. Therefore, if I throw away something and down the line that harms someone, they too knew what was going to happen as they themselves did it. In this sense I think they deserve it. It's hard to explain. The only thing I do that can be considered wrong is putting my rubbish in the bin, what else would you have me do? I do everything in my power to do good. I give to charities, I recycle. The rest is out of my hands. So in this way I am not doing anything with passive intent for eventual harm as you're saying. You sound like a fundamentalist Christian saying "we're all sinners!". As much as I hate to break it to yah, that's only your opinion. I find my life to be very moral and not evil at all. And this conversation is so off topic it's unreal.

I'm going to bed now, at 7:52AM. I hope someone steps in and helps my position while I'm gone, though I doubt they will.

Although you do all that it is pointless it doesn't counter balance the harm others have done. I don't see how it's off topic I am still debating on whether or not humanity is evil, however I must say that recycling and donating doesn't necessarily make you a good person.

I too must sleep, let us rest off our battle weary and continue the struggle tomorrow.

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Feb 16, 2010 8:59 AM #547594

Auto it's no where close to off topic, we are explaining why humanity is evil. if we took scientists and asked them do you think from a logic stand point humanity is evil i'm sure some of them would say yes, but of course this is a guess and may not be true. but this can't be a true argument unless you look at it from a logical standpoint, not the biased one you have been coming from

alive
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Feb 16, 2010 5:20 PM #547664

hmm.

Well, tekushikume. It seems to me like all you are doing is repeating the same weak argument in every post, while bashing other for their ignorance and at the same time ignoring their arguments. Good going. In order for this discussion to not continue in a loop, we need to try and respond directly to the post we are addressing. That means not ignorantly calling each other ignorant, but actually considering each others points, and providing a valid rebuttal if we disagree.

I will begin with asking you a few simple questions. Are morals inherent in the universe, or are morals a concept created by man?

Automaton
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Feb 16, 2010 5:37 PM #547667

Quote from Jutsu
Although you do all that it is pointless it doesn't counter balance the harm others have done. I don't see how it's off topic I am still debating on whether or not humanity is evil, however I must say that recycling and donating doesn't necessarily make you a good person.

I too must sleep, let us rest off our battle weary and continue the struggle tomorrow.

What I'm saying is that if there's anything I can do to do what is in my eyes good, I'll do it. And I never do anything willfully bad for no reason. That in my eyes makes me not evil. If you think that makes me evil, fine, that's your opinion because EVIL HAS NO STANDARD DEFINITION. How many times I've repeated this I don't know. Evil to one is different to another.

I realise arguing with you, tek, is futile because we're getting nowhere. I'm not the only one that thinks this. Anyway, here goes:

Quote from tekushikume
Auto it's no where close to off topic, we are explaining why humanity is evil. if we took scientists and asked them do you think from a logic stand point

Can you please stop saying that? I realise you're trying to look clever but it's not working. The sentence would have been perfectly fine without that in there.

humanity is evil i'm sure some of them would say yes, but of course this is a guess and may not be true.

Well, at least you're admitting saying yes it's evil (as you have been) is guesswork, which put in better terms means that there are no statistics that take everything into account, and opinions on evil vary.

but this can't be a true argument unless you look at it from a logical standpoint, not the biased one you have been coming from

Seriously? Logical standpoint again? Of course I'm biased in my opinion, that's the way every debate with 2 oppositions works. That doesn't mean that I ignore the facts and think illogically. I can, however, say that you have been ignoring my points, and been trying to vary your words like "logic standpoint" whilst regurgitating the same points over and over again. Your arguments consist of "you're not thinking logically, heres what people do that are evil: rape etc. You're ignorant". If you had read my arguments you would see that I have adressed these issues many times and repeating them just shows that you're not listening.

BTW, epic troll is epic.

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Feb 16, 2010 7:49 PM #547680

Okay first auto man actually i have been answering back to your posts but just the ones that have been toward me because it would be unfair for me to post along with jutsu. And Alive as far as i know sense we don't know if there is other life and all that good stuff, it's a concept created by man.I'm trying to by the dictionary word evil, sense that seems to be the best description for it sense peoples morals are all different in view it's the same as right and wrong, people have different views.Which is why it's best to go by text book evil.

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Feb 16, 2010 9:11 PM #547689

Quote from tekushikume
Okay first auto man actually i have been answering back to your posts but just the ones that have been toward me because it would be unfair for me to post along with jutsu. And Alive as far as i know sense we don't know if there is other life and all that good stuff, it's a concept created by man.I'm trying to by the dictionary word evil, sense that seems to be the best description for it sense peoples morals are all different in view it's the same as right and wrong, people have different views.Which is why it's best to go by text book evil.

Well what is the text book definition of evil that you have chosen to use then?

Zed
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Feb 16, 2010 9:23 PM #547691

Would anyone want to disagree with the definition:

Evil - knowingly doing something which would not, in so far as could be known at the time, produce the best outcome compared to viable alternatives

?

It leaves "best" open to interpretation but I think I can work from there.

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Feb 16, 2010 9:42 PM #547700

I disagree with that definition, where did you get it from?
It makes evil extremely broad, and turns common acts that shouldn't be regarded as evil into it. Take my situation as it is now, for example. I have a religion test tomorrow. I'm not completely ready, and should therefore study for it. Regardless, I'm here on SPP and on facebook, doing nothing important. It is clear that studying is the best option (it will produce the best outcome - me getting a good grade), yet I choose to do what I am doing now (an inferior choice). By your definition, as I understand it, I am evil.

A better definition would in my eyes be: knowingly doing something that causes more harm than the proportional gain, or for no other reason than personal satisfaction.

Which ever definition you choose, the statement "Humanity is evil" is false. Let me rephrase that statement to better show what i mean. "Humanity is knowingly doing something hich would not, in so far as could be known at the time, produce the best outcome compared to viable alternatives."
As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, humanity is not a single entity. Humanity can thus never knowingly do anything. All the different people that humanity is made of can, however.
From here it seems to me like we can do two things. Either say that if more than 50 % of the people in the world fit into the definition of evil, then humanity is evil, or say that defining humanity with a trait like evil is meaningless. To me the first option is ridiculous, and I choose to do the latter.

Another thing that is difficult when it comes to defining evil, is whether to focus on thoughts and actions, or just actions. I would, for example, say that a man who lives in a cellar, has no contact with other people, but constantly fantasizes about harming others is an evil man. He would not be considered so by any of our definitions, though.

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Feb 16, 2010 10:12 PM #547708

Quote from alive
I disagree with that definition, where did you get it from?
It makes evil extremely broad, and turns common acts that shouldn't be regarded as evil into it. Take my situation as it is now, for example. I have a religion test tomorrow. I'm not completely ready, and should therefore study for it. Regardless, I'm here on SPP and on facebook, doing nothing important. It is clear that studying is the best option (it will produce the best outcome - me getting a good grade), yet I choose to do what I am doing now (an inferior choice). By your definition, as I understand it, I am evil.

A better definition would in my eyes be: knowingly doing something that causes more harm than the proportional gain, or for no other reason than personal satisfaction.

I made that definition up myself. As I see it, it is more or less identical to yours, only it leaves more wiggle-room around the definition of benefit. Yours jumps straight to hedonic calculus.

It could be argued that your being here instead of studying is the better outcome because you have more fun and I suspect you're good enough to pass the test now anyway with no noticeable negative impact on your happiness.

Equally, it could be argued that you are here for short term satisfaction but in the long run will cause massive negative externalities by failing the test and failing your course overall which will limit your choices in the future (university for instance) and could result in you not doing something great for the world. Who knows, you could be curing cancer 20 years down the line for a tiny sacrifice today.

Which ever definition you choose, the statement "Humanity is evil" is false. Let me rephrase that statement to better show what i mean. "Humanity is knowingly doing something hich would not, in so far as could be known at the time, produce the best outcome compared to viable alternatives."
As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, humanity is not a single entity. Humanity can thus never knowingly do anything. All the different people that humanity is made of can, however.
From here it seems to me like we can do two things. Either say that if more than 50 % of the people in the world fit into the definition of evil, then humanity is evil, or say that defining humanity with a trait like evil is meaningless. To me the first option is ridiculous, and I choose to do the latter.

Another thing that is difficult when it comes to defining evil, is whether to focus on thoughts and actions, or just actions. I would, for example, say that a man who lives in a cellar, has no contact with other people, but constantly fantasizes about harming others is an evil man. He would not be considered so by any of our definitions, though.

I'd call that man a saint. He is resisting his evil temptations. For some people, helping a little old lady across the road is as effortless as breathing - it just comes naturally. For this man, however, he is putting conscious effort into not pushing the lady in front of the bus. He is working hard to improve the world, even if all that entails is leaving the lady alone completely. In order that evil triumphs, all that is required is for good men to do nothing. And vice versa.

Personally, I see no problem with defining humanity as a whole by the actions of the majority. If you mix acid and alkali in a 3:2 ratio, the result is going to be acidic, if less so than when the acid is pure.

I'd also like to mention the Gaia hypothesis: that larger entities (usually the Earth) which we seem to be the only conscious part of may actually be conscious themselves on a higher level through the combined interaction of the contingent parts. Human consciousness comes about as the sum of a load of atoms buzzing around. The atoms don't know that they're part of anything bigger, and none of them are actually connected, but just acting naturally is enough to generate the consciousness. Someone (I forget the name unfortunately) illustrated the concept with the story of Aunt Hillary, an ant hill, who knew that her friend, the anteater, was coming by the change in behaviour of her ants.

My point is, how do you know that humanity cannot be judged as a single entity that is capable of evil in the same way as we are, or possibly even in a synergisticly greater way?

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Feb 16, 2010 10:40 PM #547731

# morally objectionable behavior
# morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds"
# that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune; "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare
# having the nature of vice
# the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice; "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world"
# malefic: having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

this is the one i would be going by. and over a majority would agree that murder rape, stealing are morally wrong but that's just a few things a push out there that i put into my posts