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Devil's advocate (religious debate, proceed with caution)

Started by: Exile | Replies: 220 | Views: 13,074

Fusion
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Sep 24, 2012 6:35 PM #745751
If you can say "I definitely believe that a higher power probably exists" then you aren't an Atheist.
Kveyo

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Sep 25, 2012 2:24 AM #746079
religious debates, never going to end

why dont you pussies just go to war about it already

fuck
2-D
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Sep 25, 2012 2:38 AM #746085
im gonna die for my disbelief!
Kveyo

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Sep 25, 2012 2:49 AM #746091
thats the spirit
McRhook
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Sep 26, 2012 3:23 AM #746718
Alright, I'm going to need some clarification about a certain topic that'll determine whether or not I continue being religious or just become agnostic.

The idea of the "beginning of time" is what I'm confused about.
According to the Big Bang theory, this single point of all matter existed before time "started." It was just there. Then it expanded/exploded. Wait, wouldn't you need "time" for events to occur? I heard that quantum physics has an explanation for this event to occur outside the boundaries of time. Can someone explain that theory to me? If matter itself can't act outside the boundaries of time, then don't you need something or a supernatural being not bound by these things to trigger this explosion? Perhaps this Big Bang theory is actually true but it just involves divine intervention.

I might be overthinking this.

Side thoughts:
When you say that this single point of matter can do certain things outside of the laws of physics without any solid evidence, isn't that just like how religion works (unless there's evidence I'm unaware of)? There's no evidence but you believe it because it sounds convincing. Yet, we scream at each other saying that the other side is illogical and just plain stupid/ignorant/blind etc.
Automaton
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Sep 26, 2012 4:31 AM #746732
I could be completely wrong with this, haven't looked into it, but I'd always been under the impression that time was there when there was only a singularity, just in a completely different form. So yes, when the expansion happened there was time. There was just no BEFORE that singularity that we know of.
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Sep 26, 2012 6:09 AM #746750
time is just our perception of groups of present moments that have come and gone or have yet to come and go
Exile
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Sep 26, 2012 3:14 PM #746920
Quote from McRhook
According to the Big Bang theory, this single point of all matter existed before time "started." It was just there. Then it expanded/exploded. Wait, wouldn't you need "time" for events to occur?


No. Time doesn't cause events to occur, it isn't some sort of force, it's just a dimension. A way of measuring the distance between non-simultaneous events.

Quote from McRhook
If matter itself can't act outside the boundaries of time, then don't you need something or a supernatural being not bound by these things to trigger this explosion? Perhaps this Big Bang theory is actually true but it just involves divine intervention.


The theory doesn't explain where the big bang came from and how it was triggered. It's the theory that the universe has been expanding from a singularity, which is the earliest point in our universe's history that has any significant meaning to us.


Quote from McRhook
When you say that this single point of matter can do certain things outside of the laws of physics without any solid evidence, isn't that just like how religion works (unless there's evidence I'm unaware of)? There's no evidence but you believe it because it sounds convincing. Yet, we scream at each other saying that the other side is illogical and just plain stupid/ignorant/blind etc.


There's tons of evidence that the universe began as a singularity. The theory has nothing to do with where that singularity came from or how/why it started to expand, that's considered cosmogeny and we don't have any real way of confirming things of that nature (yet)

So no, that's not like religion at all. Scientists will openly admit "We don't know and we have no way of knowing yet", whereas religion fills those gaps of knowledge with "God did it". Similar to how God was the explanation for lightning, rain, disease and all sorts of other natural phenomena that the scientific method has since explained.
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Sep 26, 2012 7:53 PM #747023
Thanks, it's starting to make more sense now. Still a little cloudy but a lot more clear.
Xave14

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Oct 2, 2012 12:03 PM #750047
Hey this is how i look at it if the just do what the theist say if they're right you will go to heaven if the atheist are right it doesn't matter
Xave14

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Oct 2, 2012 12:24 PM #750053
i will give you an a scientific example that supports the Christain belief of a young earth. the sun loses 2meters in diameter each year. if the univese was really billions of yrs old the sun would have destroyed the earth soon after the supposed big bang.
Lag

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Oct 2, 2012 12:47 PM #750061
The growth or diminishing of the sun is not and can not be linear. So the numbers now can't be the same that they were years ago.
Exile
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Oct 2, 2012 2:06 PM #750103
Quote from Xave14
i will give you an a scientific example that supports the Christain belief of a young earth. the sun loses 2meters in diameter each year. if the univese was really billions of yrs old the sun would have destroyed the earth soon after the supposed big bang.


The sun is about 1,380,000,000 meters in diameter, even if studies show it's shrinking by 2 meters every year (it's not), that's only .00000000114% of its size, measured for only a few of the 4-5 billion years it's existed. That's statistically insignificant and the conclusion you're drawing from it directly contradicts everything that we know about the Sun, and stars in general.
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Oct 2, 2012 2:13 PM #750109
Quote from Exilement
Yay, a religious debate! I'll try to make this one unique.


As someone who enjoys discussing religious topics, I've noticed a common trend among most teenage atheists, and how they act online. Atheism is simply the belief that there are no gods or dieties. For some reason, it is also associated with things like science, logic, rationality and reason. "In science we trust" and all that shit.

Because of this, the trend I see is this sense of superiority over theists, as if simply believing in a god means you're incapable of logic or reason on the same level as an atheist.


I see it a lot here. It's kind of embarrassing, really. There's a very condescending attitude towards religious members, specifically Christians. Granted, I've debated with young-earth creationists who were fucking idiots, but I've also seen atheists make claims that are equally ridiculous. It's even worse because they still believe they're the representatives of "science" when they have no clue what they're talking about.

Both sides are equally convinced they're right, but atheists seem more aggressive about it. So let's let that aggression out.

My fellow atheists, what do you base your beliefs (or lack of belief) on? I'm going to play devil's advocate and play defense on the Christian team. It's your job to convince me I'm wrong and/or that you're right. Don't pull any punches, give me the best you've got, and hopefully we'll all learn something.


"Atheists do not understand that in order to find the true light of The Lord they must walk by faith, not by sight. Scientists and Christians must not clash. Science simply explains how God created this Universe more in depth."
~Jeus Christ
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Oct 2, 2012 2:29 PM #750119
Quote from Mikematic
I was introduced to atheism because of animation. It just seems the a great amount of animators just so happened to be atheist. What I also realized is that compared to these guys i'm an idiot. Some of these guys really made me start thinking, and questioning if God truly does exist. I was raised christian, so I was meant to believe that i'm lucky to be brought up christian. Inside I know i'm christian, but my brain always just asks the same question.
"What happens after death?"
The atheist answer would be
"I don't know, and I don't care."

And the christian answer would be
"You meet with your God, and you will be judged, to go into heaven."

I know for a fact that God exists, because there is a lot of evidence that he actually does. But the only thing that i'm not sure about, is the after life. I believe Heaven does exists. But i'm not sure if the way the Bible portrays it is exactly true.
I mean dead people cant come back, to tell us that there's some type of twist. That's what i'm curious about.


And Exilement I do know what you are saying.
I did an experiment, to see whether or not you can tell who or who is not an atheist just by the way they speak. And it worked! You can! I have noticed that most atheists I have come in contact too all have generally the same attitude all the time! It's always "I'm smarter than you, and you are an idiot!"
I may be exaggerating that a little, but I think that its true. I mean they are always so sarcastic and take everything so literally. But hey, that's just my 2 cents.


Yeah, I meet atheists because of animation, they really got me thinking about God. I feel like I'm doing a lot of sin by thinking that He ain't true. It's also true that a lot of people here are atheist (it may be because it has a source). The bible portrays it exactly true since Jesus did say something about it when he was here on earth. People wrote down his words in the Holy Bible. He comes from Heaven so he really knows.

BTW, I have my own ways of detecting atheists. They use the term god instead of God and other things related to Him. Especially Exilement :/
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