Quote from FrozenFury3

Btw that video Tecness2 just showed you, he wasnt even doing what he would normally do. LOL, why not show him how you ACTUALLY do it Tec... CrazyJay yes that video he posted against Rummaker is perfectly fine... if that was what he actually does, its clearly not and he clearly didnt post him doing it properly. It he was doing what he dos to every other player, he would have taken out that miner out already in seconds without losing a crawler. -.- And yes i've tried spawning spearton from the start and no i didnt get to kill a crawler until i lost 2 miners already, at which point its already game over.

Yeah, and I didnt get my 300 gold income because of his rushing crawlers, by the time my spearton came out he was at my base.



Ye see? its impossibru, the chaos get a bigger economy at the beginning while having 2 crawlers rushing, crawlers must cost like 100 gold.

Tecness - I've lost to every chaos player I've faced, except one who just massed giants, and none of them used this crawler trick. This just makes it completely unfair to the order player. Without animation canceling chaos can still win, if they aren't a dumbass.

CrazyJay, does animation cancelling speed up every unit's attack? Seems pretty crazy.

Quote from 77Row

Yeah, and I didnt get my 300 gold income because of his rushing crawlers, by the time my spearton came out he was at my base.



Ye see? its impossibru, the chaos get a bigger economy at the beginning while having 2 crawlers rushing, crawlers must cost like 100 gold.

1 Crawler, 100 gold. If he has BOTH crawlers, completed and at your base already, then, that's slow reaction time on your part.

Quote from FrozenFury3

Btw that video Tecness2 just showed you, he wasnt even doing what he would normally do. LOL, why not show him how you ACTUALLY do it Tec... CrazyJay yes that video he posted against Rummaker is perfectly fine... if that was what he actually does, its clearly not and he clearly didnt post him doing it properly. It he was doing what he dos to every other player, he would have taken out that miner out already in seconds without losing a crawler. -.- And yes i've tried spawning spearton from the start and no i didnt get to kill a crawler until i lost 2 miners already, at which point its already game over.

I tried to kill his miners, but I wasn't able to. The crawler tactic is only useful if your units are running away. If they are just standing there, tanking the damage, then another unit, say the spearton that was eating my face, can kill them.

Quote from Ninjastripy

Tecness - I've lost to every chaos player I've faced, except one who just massed giants, and none of them used this crawler trick. This just makes it completely unfair to the order player. Without animation canceling chaos can still win, if they aren't a dumbass.

Chaos can win without this trick, that is true. But, if the order player isn't a dumbass, and it's on a medium-small map, most of the time, chaos gets their ass kicked in the first minute and a half.

Quote from MiamiBigAL

CrazyJay, does animation cancelling speed up every unit's attack? Seems pretty crazy.

It doesn't speed up attacks, it just removes the delay between them. It works with every unit except ranged ones(and possibly casters)

Okay, I have just done some extensive testing with CaptainCorps RE: Crawler. The results are shocking.

(1) 3 crawlers (300 gold) killed my 2 swordwraths (300 gold), where one crawler died and the other two had full life.
(2) 3 crawlers (300 gold) killed my 2 swordwraths and an archer (650 gold). There were two crawlers left. The reason for this is the crawlers just attacked the Archidon first while the swordwraths lagged behind, and after demolishing the Archidon proceeded to demolish the swordwraths.
(3) Same as 2, but I kept my archer close to my swords so the swordwraths could get some hits in while he was killing my archer. Battle was closer...still 2 crawlers left, but one very hurt. However, the crawlers could have easily killed the archidon very quickly and then run away.
(4) 3 crawlers (300 gold) vs 3 swordwraths (450 gold). Swordwraths win with one left with decent health.
(4) 1 chaos flying dude, i forget the name (400 gold 150 mana???) vs 2 archidons (600 gold). The flying dude won with about 20% health left.
(5) 1 chaos flying dude (400 gold 150 mana? I can't remember) vs 1 Albowtross (400 gold 250 mana). Albowtross won, but would have died in 2 more hits.
(6) 1 dead (300 gold 100 mana) vs 2 Archidons (600 gold). Dead wins, but only just (note: no poison)
(7) Enslaved Giant vs Chaos Giant. Enslaved giant wins with half life left. (no upgrades)
(8) 3 Enslaved Giants vs 3 Chaos Giants. The 3 Enslaved giants win with about 20% health left on each of them. (again, none upgraded)

We also tested the ability to animation-cancel with other units. The advantage is minimal with every unit except the crawler. The crawlers become significantly more effective with animation-cancel.

Don't let me get started on Medusas and Skeleton Mages either.

Right now, it seems Chaos is so overly dominant in the early game that Order has absolutely no chance against an animation-cancelling Chaos player. Note the 300 gold army destroying the 650 gold army.

I do agree, crawlers need a nerf, but not the way everyone else does. A nerf in HP would be nice. It should only take 2 bombers to kill a crawler, not 3-4.

I never thought about this animation cancelling thing... I wonder how well it would work on a swordwrath...
and MiamiBigAL, for number (8), since when did an archidon cost 300 gold?

Hi guys - let me clear these things up -

1. Animation Cancel is part of the game and will never be taken out.
2. The Current Crawler animation cancel is meant to be powerful but not as powerful as it is, I think it may be glitchy atm due to two issues,
a. The crawler has amazing acceleration so when you click to move away to cancel the animation it may be insta cancel which It should not.
b. As you know we have finishers or duels in the game, one of the crawlers attacks, may put him in an un-target-able state during his flip, which may be part of why they are so hard to target.

Rest assure I take all the balance stuff seriously and am thankful we have a great community to find things to fix. I'm still not 100% with my findings yet, but I am about 90% sure the crawlers animation cancel will be changed to at least will not be so instant.

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I will also note that , putting two units head to head to fight, is no indication of which is better, because of ability's unit composition, cost, build time, armor rating, bonus vs armor, population, moment speed acceleration, unit collaboration, and so many more....

Quote from CRAZY JAY

Hi guys - let me clear these things up -
1. Animation Cancel is part of the game and will never be taken out.

Why?? It just doesn't seem right. And most people won't know about animation cancel and will get their asses kicked against those who do.

Hi guys - let me clear these things up -

1. Animation Cancel is part of the game and will never be taken out.
2. The Current Crawler animation cancel is meant to be powerful but not as powerful as it is, I think it may be glitchy atm due to two issues,
a. The crawler has amazing acceleration so when you click to move away to cancel the animation it may be insta cancel which It should not.
b. As you know we have finishers or duels in the game, one of the crawlers attacks, may put him in an un-target-able state during his flip, which may be part of why they are so hard to target.


Well theres why we cant get hits on the cralwer, coz its invulnerable when it flips -.- ... Haha, thanks CrazyJay, all i ask for is them not to be impossible to hit and maybe a small nerf, and it reacting so fast, which makes it insta cancel. Thank you :)

Quote from Ninjastripy

Why?? It just doesn't seem right. And most people won't know about animation cancel and will get their asses kicked against those who do.

Hello - If you look at any RTS game - or even some games like street fighter - They all use animation cancel. You can always take the game to a new level with more control by using this. Starcraft2 which is of course probly the highest level of balance and gameplay for an RTS available right now, uses animation cancel in almost all of its units and most of the time you can get more then a double advantage.

If anything I will be trying to build more things like this into the game rather then take them out.

Quote from CRAZY JAY

Hello - If you look at any RTS game - or even some games like street fighter - They all use animation cancel. You can always take the game to a new level with more control by using this. Starcraft2 which is of course probly the highest level of balance and gameplay for an RTS available right now, uses animation cancel in almost all of its units and most of the time you can get more then a double advantage.

If anything I will be trying to build more things like this into the game rather then take them out.

Wait.....you think starcraft 2 is balanced?

Quote from Tecness2

Wait.....you think starcraft 2 is balanced?

Lol that's messed up. I quit playing after a while.

Quote from CRAZY JAY

Hello - If you look at any RTS game - or even some games like street fighter - They all use animation cancel. You can always take the game to a new level with more control by using this. Starcraft2 which is of course probly the highest level of balance and gameplay for an RTS available right now, uses animation cancel in almost all of its units and most of the time you can get more then a double advantage.

If anything I will be trying to build more things like this into the game rather then take them out.

So nothing will be done about crawlers? Not the invulnerability when they do their flips? No hp nerf? since they can withstand 3-4 bomber attacks?