Rage Nerf-Debate!

Started by: MiamiBigAL | Replies: 69 | Views: 5,657

MiamiBigAL

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Dec 23, 2012 11:23 AM #826668
Quote from Tecness2
Almost every ability, that needs to be used, is situational.
No, they should be CLOSE to equal, which they are.

So, your two swords, vs three crawlers. How fast would your miners die from three crawlers? In one post, you said and I quote:

So, since there is now 3 crawlers, and 2 swordwrath, the crawlers now have to attack the swordwrath? Personally, I'd prefer the enemy start with two crawlers, my miners now have a small chance.


(1) No, they should not be CLOSE to equal. They should be equal. The units cost the same amount. Either completely equal, or Order needs an advantage somewhere else that makes up for the Spearton's deficit. Fixing abilities that no one bothers researching because they are SHIT is probably the best solution.

If you knew anything about this game, you'd know a spearton who is on shield wall mode just gets ignored, which in turn renders shield bash useless. And it is extremely easy to dodge shield bash as well. Juggerknights can do it at will with very little micro, so even when engaging shield bash is totally useless.

(2) The whole point of my post, if you bothered to read, was to have equal armies and equal miners. Two swords cost 300. Three crawlers cost 300. They are an equal value and typically equal power army. You can achieve this with 600 gold but not 500 gold, which also equals both sides getting two miners to start.

I never said I fixed the crawler/miner harassment problem with this solution. It would just fix the imbalanced miner start, which is the biggest problem. Miner harassment gives chaos an economic edge, rather than an economic landslide like the miner imbalance.

The extra miners would also reduce the proportionate effect of the tower, which chaos will inevitably win with its other imbalances. But at least Order has more of a fighting chance than before.
PsychoticCheez

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Dec 23, 2012 2:19 PM #826725
Quote from Tecness2
Something that gives you a massive advantage over your opponent(s) with little effort on your part.


In the context of this game I like to think there are two types of advantages.
1. Winning (you'd call these "Massive") advantages, which mean that with enough effort a win can be FORCED.
2. Slight advantages, which puts pressure on the opponent to do something, however balance (via either a stalemate in defence, or a suitable counter-attack) can be restored with appropriate effort from the opponent. Slight advantages do nothing more than open doors for the opponent to make mistakes. They do not win games themselves.

The question is whether or not a 5% Juggerknight is a massive/winning advantage or just a slight advantage. Obviously we must take the rest of your definition, "with little effort on your part".
Therefore it could be interpreted that you think the Juggerknight > Spearton difference is justifiable because:

1. An extra 5% Juggerknight is only a slight advantage, and is not capable of affecting the outcome of an early-mid game battle. (You imply this below).

Quote from Tecness2
It was an example. An Archidon could most likely kill the Juggerknight at how low the health would be after an encounter with a Spearton. The point of me saying that, is because you continue to say, the Juggerknight is massively overpowered compared to the Spearton, and yet, as I just said, 1-2(maybe 3-4) shots from an Archidon could save the Spearton, and kill the Juggerknight. Also, I don't research rage.


Normally, they are building up a larger army at their base, or at the middle, while also building up their economy. It's a poker thing, why show everyone your entire hand, when you can show them one card, and let them guess?

See, now you're assuming the Order player is a lemon(why a lemon? Why not a lime or an apple?), he could easily have the Swordwrath attack once, run back, attack again, run back, or hand back for a while OR attack and when he gets too injured, retreat it?



a) It doesn't take much imagination to see how an extra Juggerknight, even at 5% health, could be utilized. You say that Order has suitable counters, but those counters cost gold and time, and each of Order's responses can be efficiently nullified by Chaos' arsenal, whichever they choose to use.
b) Chaos' crawlers make them more suitable to scout. They can gain the information first, as they have the option of engage the swordwrath. And if they so choose to, that swordwrath must garrison to retain full efficiency, whilst the crawler is rapidly back in action.

OR

2. The massive/winning advantage this 5% Juggerknight has is justifiable because it requires more than "little effort on your part" to utilize.
a) This is a clear imbalance, as no side should have to lose if they have made no mistakes.



Quote from Tecness2
The effective range of the shield bash, is I believe(could be mistaken) just higher than that of the attacking range of the spearton. I believe you and I define defensive differently. I define it as, sit back and wait in a fortified position. Water against the rocks if you will. For this, the spearton not only serves this purpose, he does it painfully well.

As someone said, Chaos plays aggressively, order plays defensively. Chaos is to attack, while Order is to counter.


As was said, the shield bash attack is easily dodged.
The Juggerknights' charge can mimic the shield bash, and they can follow up quickly with strikes. Their charge effect also gives a significantly higher chance of hitting, and has little chance of being dodged.
The Speartons' shield bash leaves the Speartons still immobile, and they leave their "shield wall" animation too slow to be able to mimic the Juggerknights' damage efficiency, I.e.

In the case of the Spearton's ability, the support lines fire at the stunned units.
In the case of the Juggerknights' ability, the support lines fire at the stunned units, as well as the Juggerknights being able to contribute to this cause.

Quote from Tecness2

300 For an Castle Archer, and if the chaos player is stupid enough to let his units die, that would be 200 lost. With that being said, the effectiveness of the castle archer no matter the stage of the game, more than makes up for it.


Wrong. For the purposes of this debate, can we assume that both players are playing as optimally as possible? It's useless to say races are balanced if they are not being utilized to their full potential in the examples given as evidence.

Take your Castle Archer example. A Chaos player playing optimally would not keep on attacking. And a Chaos player would utilize the Castle Archer's disadvantages.
Optimal players will not look at the Castle Archer and cower (well, at least not in early game). They'll look at it and think, "That's another 2 miners I can afford to build", because I know he's wasted 300 gold on something that can't touch them.


Quote from Tecness2

I was giving an example with order vs order. Well, let's see, if you have the Speartons just a tiny bit being the wall(Yes, I said wall the first time) and the Juggerknight's charge will have no affect on the Speartons, while the Speartons are open to use shield-bash and stun them, then eat their faces(I'm a fan of zombies). WHY LEMONS AGAIN.

Walls, They can't go past the walls. The Speartons are only meant to be there sitting back for a few moments, while the Magikill & Archidons do some damage.


This is not an example of people playing optimally.

If you saw Speartons performing a shield wall just behind a wall, you would not charge them. The wall would get harassment via long range units, or Marrowkai.

Magikill are useless thanks to Medusa.
MiamiBigAL

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Dec 23, 2012 7:34 PM #826917
I think people misunderstand the snowballing effect of this game. A 5% advantage is not minimal, it is huge. A 1% advantage can also be huge.

To give an easy example. Imagine both players going for spearton/juggerknight in the beginning. What happens? The juggerknight starts to win, the spearton has to retreat. The juggerknight wins the tower.

Chaos, with its 5% advantage over the Spearton has now translated that advantage into a 50% economic advantage of chaos over order, which translates into both a massively bigger economy, which then translates into an extremely easy way of holding that tower advantage.

Chaos does not just win in this situation, it ends up dominating Order with its eyes closed while on a cigarette break.

You need to look at the big picture when you talk about balance. Work out what would actually happen...then you'll start seeing the huge imbalances more clearly. You can't just say "oh, just add a swordwrath in there and everything is fine". It does not work like that.
badplayer
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Dec 23, 2012 8:52 PM #826958
5% is huge? maybe uve never played another strategy game like starcraft?

my personal recommendation to fix spearton vs juggerknight would be decrease juggerknight hp by a bit. that way, spearton would win in an unmicroed battle and the juggerknight would be forced to retreat for a bit of hp if they wanted to kill the spearton. the spearton, at ~5% hp, would be more easily picked off than the juggerknight because it cant recover on the field and it would probably also retreat
300noob
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Dec 25, 2012 12:42 PM #828764
With 5% health left, a jugger can kill a non-rage swordwrath with no problem at all (don't talk about rage with swordwrath in this situation because rage is not something worth spend on unless you meet a giant spammer).
Castle archer? They do !@^@# when the enemy is out of range while consumed ya gold.
Crawler is a better option compare to swordwrath because their speed, cheap price, passive heal and easily mass.
Jugger charge vs spearton wall+bash? Jugger still win.



On a side note: What's with the off topic disscussions? How about making a thread purely for debate balance stuff?
PsychoticCheez

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Dec 25, 2012 2:22 PM #828824
Depending how you use the term, "off topic", it arguably isn't.

This thread was started because rage was what gave Order a fighting chance against Chaos. Rage is the surface problem.

The underlying problem was balance issues between Order and Chaos.
Although yes, a separate thread would be nice.

On the topic of rage, I genuinely believe it would be fair to maintain the 50/50 price, but to keep the rage ability prior to patch 1.31 (original speed, 6.5 second rage) ...with the exception that perhaps the speed increase could be in between what it currently is now, and what it was before.

I don't see how rage was defined as imbalanced when it takes a minute to research, as well as swordwrath being flimsy little creatures anyways.

Quote from CRAZY JAY
I think the issue with Rage from the start was more so that rage itself was a bit IMBA, not so much the price of it.

The ability to rage run back to your base after taking tons of damage it way to strong and the rage itself seams to be a bit too fast and last a bit too long.


You know what else is way too strong? The ability to not have to run back to your base after taking tons of damage, and still be able to heal.

Sure, Order will end up getting an advantage in military strength if they could rage-run back to base.

However Chaos gains:

1. Economy
They win the tower, at least temporarily ...it depends how the game plays.
They can also force Order's miners to lose time, if they harrass them. After all, Order's troops are in the garrison.

2. Ground ...which equates to time.
When Order finishes recovering, Chaos has the option to run back to base, which is enough time for a few more Chaos troops to join the fray, restoring the balance of military strength.

3. Information
By harassing the miners and being close to Order's base, Chaos can see what Order decided to spend their resources on. See more swordwrath pouring out? Get bombers. See nothing? A Spearton must be building. Quick, get a Juggerknight!


This seems more like a balanced battle, with strengths and weaknesses. However rage is too weak at the moment and so the costs incurred in terms of time is too much, and the military strength gained is too little.

Let's not forget that it takes one minute to research rage, and that's not considering the fact that we had to research the mana to get rage. By then it may be too late.
Bladed Fire
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Dec 26, 2012 12:11 AM #829286
Quote from PsychoticCheez
Depending how you use the term, "off topic", it arguably isn't.

This thread was started because rage was what gave Order a fighting chance against Chaos. Rage is the surface problem.

The underlying problem was balance issues between Order and Chaos.
Although yes, a separate thread would be nice.

On the topic of rage, I genuinely believe it would be fair to maintain the 50/50 price, but to keep the rage ability prior to patch 1.31 (original speed, 6.5 second rage) ...with the exception that perhaps the speed increase could be in between what it currently is now, and what it was before.

I don't see how rage was defined as imbalanced when it takes a minute to research, as well as swordwrath being flimsy little creatures anyways.



You know what else is way too strong? The ability to not have to run back to your base after taking tons of damage, and still be able to heal.

Sure, Order will end up getting an advantage in military strength if they could rage-run back to base.

However Chaos gains:

1. Economy
They win the tower, at least temporarily ...it depends how the game plays.
They can also force Order's miners to lose time, if they harrass them. After all, Order's troops are in the garrison.

2. Ground ...which equates to time.
When Order finishes recovering, Chaos has the option to run back to base, which is enough time for a few more Chaos troops to join the fray, restoring the balance of military strength.

3. Information
By harassing the miners and being close to Order's base, Chaos can see what Order decided to spend their resources on. See more swordwrath pouring out? Get bombers. See nothing? A Spearton must be building. Quick, get a Juggerknight!


This seems more like a balanced battle, with strengths and weaknesses. However rage is too weak at the moment and so the costs incurred in terms of time is too much, and the military strength gained is too little.

Let's not forget that it takes one minute to research rage, and that's not considering the fact that we had to research the mana to get rage. By then it may be too late.

Rage is the backbone of Order while Poison Guts are the backbone of Chaos. Agree?
DragonFrost
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Dec 26, 2012 12:24 AM #829295
Not always. Some people never use swords/deads, thus their abilities would not be the backbone of their empire (p.s. can someone tell me why it's called backbone?), and if bought, would just be some random useless thing they bought (foolishly or by accident)
MiamiBigAL

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Dec 26, 2012 12:47 PM #829803
What he means by backbone is that they are essential abilities that you have to research and build your army around, rather than just situational abilities.

And on that note, they are not the backbone. Merics with poison heal sort of nullify poison guts. And rage is just overly nerfed now. The damage suffered from using rage is not compensated for when you are chasing a retreating army. Rage just isn't really worth it anymore after the nerf. It can be used to catch a hurt crawler off guard, but that's about it. Once you rage, you have to retreat your whole army, which is a huge negative.
MiamiBigAL

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Dec 26, 2012 1:07 PM #829819
Quote from badplayer
5% is huge? maybe uve never played another strategy game like starcraft?

my personal recommendation to fix spearton vs juggerknight would be decrease juggerknight hp by a bit. that way, spearton would win in an unmicroed battle and the juggerknight would be forced to retreat for a bit of hp if they wanted to kill the spearton. the spearton, at ~5% hp, would be more easily picked off than the juggerknight because it cant recover on the field and it would probably also retreat


Yes, I have. I understand that you probably haven't bothered to read my post in its full context.

I talked about a 5% advantage of one unit over another, which TRANSLATES into a 50% economic advantage. And THAT is huge. I am arguing about the effect of the 5%, not the 5% itself.

From your second sentence, you're obviously also suggesting spearton needs a buff or juggerknight a nerf.