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Chaos is it fair?

Started by: BuddyLucky2 | Replies: 173 | Views: 10,269 | Closed

WheresMyCheetos
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Apr 2, 2013 7:45 PM #935433
Buddy goku is right. Dont rage all the time.
Heard the saying if you can't beat them, join them
uberman

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Apr 2, 2013 8:51 PM #935467
Lets consider castle dead - crappy as they are, on a small stage it may be the only way to fend off swords without godlike micro of cats, compared to castle archer.

Against the basic unit, a sword, hitting it with poison is almost as good as dead. But it will kill him after he and his friends have done their duty and killed a miner or two.
Compare to castle archer against crawlers; not only will a castle archer kill a crawler before it can kill a miner, but it will actually kill 4 at once before all 4 can do enough damage to kill a miner.

So equal comparison based on gold, (ignoring the construction time which means only 3 crawlers could actually be made at the same time as the 3 early swords early in the game) -
3 swords (375 gold) attack chaos with castle dead - one sword will die to poison and shitty damage, and one miner is dead, but two survive, to continue killing miners while one other sword is made and adds to the fight - this is exactly how swords over run chaos - as fast as chaos can kill them, new ones are spawning and reaching the fight.
4 crawlers attack order with castle archer - all crawlers dead and probably not even half way down the miners life. Meanwhile one crawler is spawned and will die if it is foolish enough to come close.

Yes, this ignores the defending units, its just comparing base defences against an attacking force.
But it gets even more OP for order when the units are included.

Look;

Consider a budget of about 400 gold, one side spending on offence, the other defence.
so 3 swords (375 gold) attack chaos with 1 crawler (100) and castle dead (300) total 400 gold, vs 4 crawlers (400) attack order with 1 swords (125) and castle dead (300) total 425 gold.

Do I have to point out that order attacks; in a couple of hits from 3 swords the crawler is dead, one sword is poisoned and taken a little damage, he will die - but not before raping the miners with his buddies. acceptable losses to order, and new swords can be spawned and added to keep the pressure up - because the slow kill rate of poison means only one sword at a time dies.
Chaos attacks; all crawlers are hit by the castle archer, and will be dead before killing the sword or a miner. Zero losses to order, complete wipe to chaos. All chaos has is say a single crawler spawned, who cant attack.

But bombs! I hear them cry.
If order has 2 miners on a gold mining position, chaos can at best kill 2 miners (300 gold) with 3 bombs (225 gold) assuming order does nothing (such as withdraw miners before bombs reach) and assuming the castle archer miss the bombs. A slight win to chaos striking two or slight loss if killing only one - but then chaos is defenceless, having not taken out any offensive units, and bombs being one shot units.
Lets give chaos 6 bombs, and kill two groups of miners, 4 miners, thats bad for order and will get 'OP chaos F'king bombs' in chat - but thats the bolt shot by chaos, he's now defenceless against the counter attack. However in the 6x8=48 seconds required to build all those bombs, plus time to travel across the map, order has been mining and will not be out of the game. Either they have used money on other miners, or are holding enough money to build miners or enough swords to take out the chaos miners. Probably both some miners left and a swords force.
As long as order has only 1 miner per gold, or two miners grouped, it is a physical immpossibilty for chaos to wipe out more than 2 miners with 3 bombs (and 3 bombs is the minimum to kill outright a miner).


Consider mid game or end game, castle dead's poison is simply removed by a meric - its only point being it stops the meric healing for a single heal. The single target damage is besically insignificant in an assult run, even if it targets an easy to kill unit like an albow, at worst one will die if order makes no attempt to save it.
Ignore the meric removing poison or healing the damage done, with an attacking force of just 4 or more speartons, they can almost totally disregard the castle dead as the spears do serious damage to miners or statue before the first one dies.
But castle archers are doing significantly more damage to a whole group of attacking units. Even a group of 4 Juggs cant stand it for long, and will take along time to regenerate the damage taken if they flee. The damage of a single (or heaven forbid 2) castle archers is very significant to the chaos forces attacking order.
If its wings being hit then you can easily lose 4 wings to a single castle archer before getting out of range.

So, again, castle dead is insignificant in effect, castle archer is far FAR better.

IMO
either add splash damage to castle dead, or remove it from castle archer.
As it is, its not even close to fair.

Yes, castle dead did get a buff, and are now just simply ineffective compared to highly effective archer, where as before the buff, they were a complete farse. Saddly the increase in cost, so well done to castle archer was also applied to castle dead, who need a buff not a nerf.

TL DR; move along I cant help you.
WheresMyCheetos
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Apr 2, 2013 8:55 PM #935471
Dont remove splash, deads should be able to hit 2 at a time then :)

Also has anyone considered what nerfing/buffing will do to order vs order mtachs, someone will say with order so strong speartons giants suck, I want chaos
BAM annoying new complaints!!!

Also Chaos has to be a little better then order in some way, or else CJ will lose alot of members
asdfstick
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Apr 2, 2013 10:16 PM #935528
1 thing i'll accept is nerfing the eclipsor's speed. They're faster than an albowtross and can kill retreating wounded albows.
GokuXx
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Apr 3, 2013 1:27 AM #935713
Quote from asdfstick
1 thing i'll accept is nerfing the eclipsor's speed. They're faster than an albowtross and can kill retreating wounded albows.



##Why would you nerf the Eclipsor speed?? If you do that then nerf the allbow and take away it's ability to shoot fire bow and the 2nd ability to get more stronger.
asdfstick
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Apr 3, 2013 1:29 AM #935714
Quote from GokuXx
##Why would you nerf the Eclipsor speed?? If you do that then nerf the allbow and take away it's ability to shoot fire bow and the 2nd ability to get more stronger.


It's just a suggestion.
WheresMyCheetos
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Apr 3, 2013 1:32 AM #935718
Hmmm I'll be ok if they nerf medusa back to 500 mana cause magikill are useless.
GokuXx
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Apr 3, 2013 1:35 AM #935722
Quote from WheresMyCheetos
Hmmm I'll be ok if they nerf medusa back to 500 mana cause magikill are useless.


## Not even that. Kills are not useless. They are flexible and can beat up units pretty badly.
asdfstick
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Apr 3, 2013 1:38 AM #935725
Quote from GokuXx
## Not even that. Kills are not useless. They are flexible and can beat up units pretty badly.


I wonder if their backs ever break :/
It'll be all like vene- OH MY BACK*dies* Oh noes our magikill is dead! *Bunch of crawlers come*
Why not buff the albow to have the same speed as an eclispor?
WheresMyCheetos
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Apr 3, 2013 1:42 AM #935727
No that's bad. Albow are stronger have ability have armor. Just fot an extra 50
mooseontheloose

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Apr 3, 2013 6:10 AM #935951
(replying to thread)
no. just no. i've only ever beaten chaos players that mass bombers....and wing thingys.
_Ai_
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Apr 3, 2013 6:26 AM #935963
How about a nerf for eclipsors...and give them back, but you have to research for it.
ShadowGeneralChaos
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Apr 3, 2013 9:16 AM #936042
i hate BOMBERS!!! Bombers here bombers there...
uberman

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Apr 3, 2013 12:16 PM #936151
Quote from WheresMyCheetos
Dont remove splash, deads should be able to hit 2 at a time then :)


How many does castle dead hit at once (I think 4 at once right)? Would that be hit causing damage and poison to two at once?


Also has anyone considered what nerfing/buffing will do to order vs order mtachs, someone will say with order so strong speartons giants suck, I want chaos
BAM annoying new complaints!!!


Yes, changes to order vs chaos matches will also affect order vs order, if its a change made to order (such as removing splash damage), or, will affect chaos vs chaos if its a change to chaos (such as adding splash damage).



Also Chaos has to be a little better then order in some way, or else CJ will lose alot of members


Thats a fact which I agree with - some think its a crime to say chaos should be a little better than order, but the fact is that this does not mean it need not be 'pay to win' where a poor chaos player always or easily beats a higher ability order, but as it stands its quite often the exact reverse - a lower ranked order player can easily beat a higher ranked chaos player as I mentioned on a short map with swords.
Bladed Fire
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Apr 3, 2013 12:20 PM #936153
How about bombers could only hit 2 enemies and no flying units please? If not increase its price and training time.
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