Quote from AlphaMan

Wait I don't understand. Does this mean that starting in June we can't use our Flash CS6 unless you pay them monthly?

Go read Jeff's post. He explained everything very well and actually did some research. Unlike Peter.

Quote from Exilement

It's only $19.99 a month for a single application. An annual contract of $49.99 a month gets you access to most of their programs, not just Flash. I'm not sure how Peter missed that.

Businesses and professionals are their target market, not 15 year old kids who animate stick figures. For what you get, that pricing is pretty damn fair, especially considering how expensive their stuff usually is.


Unless you paid for Flash, shut the fuck up.

Virtually all of you guys downloaded Flash illegally, so the collective reaction to this is going to amount to "baww, I can't steal their products anymore, this is so unfair!!!". What, the $500-700 professional animation suite you stole isn't good enough for you? Jesus fuck. Get over yourselves.

:O

How does Exilement know everything?

Im kinda sad, cuz now no more bootleg...
This still came as a shock.

They're on CS God knows what and I'm still rocking flash 8. Jeff explained everything in good detail in his post. If you can't understand it then you probably shouldn't be involved with things like this anyways.

Christ for the fourth or fifth time already, if you have the program right now you have nothing to worry about. Realistically there is nothing to worry about anyways. This is a good thing. There is nothing bad with what is happening.

well this looks like the definitive end of my time working with flash. i never paid for the software and don't intend to start doing so now.

having said that, i'd be very surprised if pirates can't figure out some way around this

Quote from Alien

:O

How does Exilement know everything?

he doesn't. he has common sense, and the capacity to spend 3 minutes doing research before commenting

which apparently are skills that a lot of people lack

Quote from Exilement

What, do you want me to read it to you? Look at their site. It explains everything.

In fact I don't think Peter read it either.

Not true.

Straight from their site: "You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days. However, you'll be able to use products for 180 days even if you're offline."

That's a good fucking deal, and this is somehow the "death of Flash"? You're making it sound like they're saying "you have to pay us $50 a month to use Flash" like that's all this is. If you guys already have a copy of Flash, you're not missing out on anything.

You're absolutely missing the point. As a freelancer I buy only what I need. Cheaper product packs are brilliant for the few hundred upgrades. Not one person can use all that shit. And I did read all of it. Every 30days you need to validate it, you still need to do validation! And you completely miss the main point, you're no longer paying for software. You're paying for a license.. What if I took you're car away, and said, right. You're going rental. You'd be pissed, you'd be like where's the choice?

Alot of you are like omg but you get all this software for such a cheap price!? Really!? Are you thick as? So, I use primarily AE, Prem', PS and Flash. I dont really use any of the others, meaning pricing was always cheaper NOT to go Master, so stop comparing it to it. Only companies buy master.

Quote from Arch-Angel

Go read Jeff's post. He explained everything very well and actually did some research. Unlike Peter.

GTFO, I pay for my software asshat. I read it, and as a paying customer I'm entitled to my opinion.

Maybe if you all knew that this is nothing new and Autodesk have been doing it for years then you know the problems with it. You see a shit load of programs and go WOW! This is SOOO worth it. It's not, you only use a handful of them. Saying that I should pay 600 a year is a joke. $50 is not alot compared to £44. That's like $68 USD a month. Autodesk that has a suite worth £13,000 do their subscription for £180 a year, that's £15 a month after VAT, or buy the product. So you can say good-on-for adobe, but Adobe are hamstringing everyone who is legit to pay for a license instead of a product for any upgrade. Yet you agree with a massive corporation which enforces a monthly fee instead of a product. It's a big FU to their customers, they'll have you in the palm of their hand, ready to jack up prices whenever they please. people upgraded when they wanted to upgrade when they could afford it, and what they wanted to upgrade, on individual packages.


You absolutely neglected the problem issues. So don't give me all this do your research BS.


From Adobe website:

They almost force you to go annual, as with monthly its even a higher price.
"You also have the option to select a month-to-month plan and pay a higher monthly price with no commitment. All plans purchased on Adobe.com are billed monthly."

Also the big problem with owning a license is that they can do whatever the fuck they want to do.
"It is possible that the cost of the month-to-month membership will increase, but if it does, you will be notified and given the opportunity to cancel."

However if you cancel...

You have to commit half the money upfront too before the 30 days. You can't just cancel it.
"If you purchased an annual individual membership plan and you cancel after the first 30 days but before meeting the 12-month commitment date, you will be charged 50% of the remaining amount left on your contract."

So canceling even though they jack up the price, you still have to fork out for the remaining days of your membership (only 50% if you do it under a month of starting a new contract).

This is the massive problem with memberships. You get twists you never know about unlike one off payment. So stop telling me this mandatory membership is a better solution than having the split choice we have now.

Quote from Peter Satera

You're absolutely missing the point. As a freelancer I buy only what I need. Cheaper product packs are brilliant for the few hundred upgrades. Not one person can use all that shit. And I did read all of it. Every 30days you need to validate it, you still need to do validation! And you completely miss the main point, you're no longer paying for software. You're paying for a license.. What if I took you're car away, and said, right. You're going rental. You'd be pissed, you'd be like where's the choice?

You were never paying for software. Adobe has always sold their software based on a License, in fact most companies do this as a means of legal protection. Licenses basically state that you are allowed to run and use the software but it's still owned by whoever made it. This is why you have to agree to EULAs, and I think you'll find it surprising how many pieces of software on your computer right now are not technically yours. Also that comparison doesn't really hold any water, because they aren't taking your previous versions away from you at all. It's not like they've initiated a lockdown on CS* products that stops you from using it, they haven't taken your previous purchases away at all.

Quote from Peter Satera

Alot of you are like omg but you get all this software for such a cheap price!? Really!? Are you thick as? So, I use primarily AE, Prem', PS and Flash. I dont really use any of the others, meaning pricing was always cheaper NOT to go Master, so stop comparing it to it. Only companies buy master.

So then don't pay for a full license? Is this really a difficult concept? You're complaining about having to pay $50/mo while ignoring all the other cheaper packages that are better suited for you. It would be cheaper in the long run if you needed to upgrade your versions every year. If you didn't then again, what's the problem? You still have a previous version of all those software, right? That's not going anywhere, just use that. If you have a legitimate reason for needing to upgrade, then clearly there's some worth for you in these products and it would likely be a good idea anyway to stay ahead of the curve. Do you have CS6 of any software? Then join now and you'll only pay $20/mo for the entire collection, even if you don't need it it's still a good price. CS3+ and you can get it for $29.99.

Actually now that I think about it, your argument saying that we shouldn't be talking about the Master Collection doesn't make sense. At retail price, it makes more sense to buy the master than buying a certain number of individual products from Adobe, because after a certain point it becomes more expensive to buy them individually than to just buy the collection, even if you don't use them all you're still saving money. You say you primarily use AE, Premiere, Photoshop, and Flash, right? Well lets do some math on that:

Photoshop CS6: $699.99
Flash Professional CS6: $699.99
After Effects CS6: $999.99
Premiere Professional CS6: $799.99

Total: $3199.96
* Prices gathered from Amazon, verified by Adobe website

Are you telling me that you would prefer to buy these products individually over buying a master collection and just not using the products you don't need? Remember, the Master Collection is $2,599.99. You're basically just throwing money away at this point, so I really don't understand why it's a big deal. The Creative Cloud package is still cheaper than paying over $3,000 for only 4 products.

Quote from Peter Satera

You see a shit load of programs and go WOW! This is SOOO worth it. It's not, you only use a handful of them.

Maybe YOU only use a handful of them, but right now on my computer I actively use the majority of products they're offering.

Quote from Peter Satera

people upgraded when they wanted to upgrade when they could afford it, and what they wanted to upgrade, on individual packages.

So far this is probably the only legitimate complaint I've seen, but it isn't so black and white. Adobe have chosen to subsidize the cost of their software in exchange for requiring regular payments. The tradeoff is that you have to keep paying to use the software, but the idea is that you end up paying less per cycle for Adobe products as long as you keep updating to the latest version. The other side to this is that the people who don't want to update every release probably already have a CS* product, and it will be a long time before those are obsolete. If they don't want to move on, they don't have to and will still have access to their software. Adobe is going to keep selling CS6 products traditionally as well for the time being, so anyone on the fence can update to that and then let that run into the ground.

Still, Adobe's target market isn't the people who do this, so while yes it is frustrating and annoying for some, the vast majority of Adobe's market - and the people who were going to give them money in the first place - benefit from this new set up.

Quote from Peter Satera

Also the big problem with owning a license is that they can do whatever the fuck they want to do.
"It is possible that the cost of the month-to-month membership will increase, but if it does, you will be notified and given the opportunity to cancel."

However if you cancel...

You have to commit half the money upfront too before the 30 days. You can't just cancel it.
"If you purchased an annual individual membership plan and you cancel after the first 30 days but before meeting the 12-month commitment date, you will be charged 50% of the remaining amount left on your contract."

So canceling even though they jack up the price, you still have to fork out for the remaining days of your membership (only 50% if you do it under a month of starting a new contract).

Legally they cannot charge you that 50% if you're cancelling due to an unforeseen change in the service. This is true with every single company. This is also how you can get out of cell phone contracts. If you're paying a subscription fee for a service and they change the service on you, you can break that contract with no repercussions. You can contact an Adobe representative to confirm this.

Quote from Peter Satera

So stop telling me this mandatory membership is a better solution than having the split choice we have now.

It's up to you as a customer to decide whether or not the products and services they offer are worth your money.

You've decided it isn't. Fine. Fair enough. Your post still confused the hell out of virtually everyone who (presumably) read it, and calling this the "death of Flash" because you're personally uninterested in subscription-based licencing is a little over-the-top. That's all I was saying.

Anyone else read Jeff's posts and then look at his signature for confirmation? I don't know, Peter. I would be interested in a lot more than just four of those products lol.

Quote from Jeff

Also that comparison doesn't really hold any water, because they aren't taking your previous versions away from you at all. It's not like they've initiated a lockdown on CS* products that stops you from using it, they haven't taken your previous purchases away at all.

It doesn't for any previous package. But if you want to grab an upgrade, say just a one off upgrade from CS4 to CC1. Then suddenly you have to jump subscription. I honestly can't believe you're arguing for this instead of a compromise which is what we have now, a choice.

Quote from Jeff

So then don't pay for a full license? Is this really a difficult concept? You're complaining about having to pay $50/mo while ignoring all the other cheaper packages that are better suited for you. It would be cheaper in the long run if you needed to upgrade your versions every year. If you didn't then again, what's the problem? You still have a previous version of all those software, right? That's not going anywhere, just use that. If you have a legitimate reason for needing to upgrade, then clearly there's some worth for you in these products and it would likely be a good idea anyway to stay ahead of the curve. Do you have CS6 of any software? Then join now and you'll only pay $20/mo for the entire collection, even if you don't need it it's still a good price. CS3+ and you can get it for $29.99.[/B]

Cheaper packages better suited for me? That's an assumption on your part. You're forgetting these are deals that are on now. They wont be about next year. Not everyone can afford the expendature of a yearly upgrade. Which is my point. You assume that people who buy adobe software have flexibility to afford an annual upgrade. Some don't. And that's when this annual thing becomes expensive. Because suddenly you aren't paying a one off, you're paying constantly.

Are you telling me that you would prefer to buy these products individually over buying a master collection and just not using the products you don't need? Remember, the Master Collection is $2,599.99. You're basically just throwing money away at this point, so I really don't understand why it's a big deal. The Creative Cloud package is still cheaper than paying over $3,000 for only 4 products.

Production Premium package, which was significantly less. You also need to remember, then the choice was to upgrade partly what you needed.

Check this, £900:
Adobe Creative Suite 6 Production Premium:

Adobe After Effects CS6
Adobe Premiere Pro CS6
Adobe Photoshop CS6 Extended
Adobe Audition CS6
Adobe SpeedGrade CS6
Adobe Prelude CS6
Adobe Illustrator CS6
Adobe Encore CS5
Adobe Flash Professional CS6
Adobe Media Encoder CS6
Adobe Bridge CS6

Now you may go, ah yes, but £600 a year is cheaper. but say I dont need an upgrade. With CC i have to pay another £600 regardless if i need it or not.

Maybe YOU only use a handful of them, but right now on my computer I actively use the majority of products they're offering.

Yeah, but not everyone does what you do. So because it suits your field doesn't mean it suits mine. It would be great to simply depend on a single company for all my programs, but the games industry/animation industry isn't like that. You know that...

So far this is probably the only legitimate complaint I've seen, but it isn't so black and white. Adobe have chosen to subsidize the cost of their software in exchange for requiring regular payments. The tradeoff is that you have to keep paying to use the software, but the idea is that you end up paying less per cycle for Adobe products as long as you keep updating to the latest version. The other side to this is that the people who don't want to update every release probably already have a CS* product, and it will be a long time before those are obsolete.

You may end up paying less every year, but for those that cant afford to update yearly you can't brush those customers off like this. Freelancers hold a massive array of the creative market, although they don't spend the same amount as companies do the acknowledgement should still be there, which is why the offer of both options should be the right way to go, not a mandatory monthly payment. The grand scale of things you're referring to prices now, and bargains they have now, you need to think 5 years down the line. So say CC1 has a perfect balance in flash64, and PS. A great update,and I go for it. Then CC2 comes out, it's not so great, and I dont need the upgrade, in fact lets say CC3 is also a non requirement. Then I've paid £600 a year for my adobe photoshop and flash, which im happy with and could last me another three years. But i have to keep paying, in fact 3 times over what I would pay if I just bought it once.

This is what I am getting at. it's not the now which is the problem, it's when you need the upgrade you're forced to go into this constant monthly system which you can't get out of. I'm not saying this is a not a good idea, which is why i have no beef with the system they do now, but to take away the option and force you to pay from now on is a joke.

Legally they cannot charge you that 50% if you're cancelling due to an unforeseen change in the service. This is true with every single company. This is also how you can get out of cell phone contracts. If you're paying a subscription fee for a service and they change the service on you, you can break that contract with no repercussions. You can contact an Adobe representative to confirm this.

Ehhh... Do you not remember what happened when we hit 20% vat, everyones phone bill went up. Part of the membership agreement you sign. So the contract for a specified amount is never cemented. Plus, if they put it in the agreement that it can fluctuate, then you still have no choice. And even if it did fluctuate higher, and say they bring out a new package and it goes up $10. But you cant afford that, then what? You dont want the new package, but hey, you may have to pay for it.

Quote from Exilement

It's up to you as a customer to decide whether or not the products and services they offer are worth your money.
You've decided it isn't. Fine. Fair enough. Your post still confused the hell out of virtually everyone who (presumably) read it, and calling this the "death of Flash" because you're personally uninterested in subscription-based licencing is a little over-the-top. That's all I was saying.

The products are worth the money, but asking many to constantly pay no matter what the position of the company and software is shocking. I never said this was the "death of flash" I said it was basically leading to the contribution to it. So it was everyone else that misread it, dont blame me. It's not an "animation" package persay, but it's going to be a darn shame for those who do need it for animation. There's many reasons why flash is dying, but thats another conversation. Which is why I bought Toon Boom, and suggest it over new flash. However this 64bit may have subsided me if it was a production prem' upgrade. Maybe if people were legit in here and knew that they or could have considered going legit if a cheap single one off payment student edition was possible.

This is the only place, here that people are completely for the change over and mandatory memberships. Everyone else I have discussed it with in work and people use it for freelance are disgraced with it. And don't even get me started on how this effects funding for Colleges, schools and universities.

Then why not go to toon boom? Why not keep what you have now? I believe it's marketed at te business owners and schools rather than at freelancers and kids wanting to make cartoons. It will give people the option to learn more than just flash if that's what they prefer. I still don't understand the fuss lol. If you're good at what you do then it won't really make much of a difference. God I coul afford ten of these subscriptions with my old job lol

Quote from Arch-Angel

Then why not go to toon boom? Why not keep what you have now? I believe it's marketed at te business owners and schools rather than at freelancers and kids wanting to make cartoons. It will give people the option to learn more than just flash if that's what they prefer. I still don't understand the fuss lol. If you're good at what you do then it won't really make much of a difference. God I coul afford ten of these subscriptions with my old job lol

I am using Toon Boom, but i dont use only one package, you use what works for you. The Adobe Packages have it's advantages such as Prem' and AE. I've already shown that these products could be bought for £900 one off. The solution shouldn't have to be change the product, and hope that in 10 years time no progress has been made with the CC range.

Congratulations on being able to afford ten subscriptions of £600 each for a year. But some of us have a mortgage, bills and expenses to pay for so can't blow 6 Grand randomly on software.

Wow! So much anger on this thread.
*cough cough* WELL..... In my opinion....

I'm the type of guy that likes to pay for things upfront with no strings attached. Like my laptop, i paid roughly £1000 for it, despite my mum hassling me to pay monthly for it for 2 years. To me i don't see the point, if i have the money for a product i'd like to buy it and for it to 100% be mine. Same as if i were to buy a car. Thing is, people are giving the option. Which is why i think Adobe should have done so too. There are many people who would prefer the monthly subscription due to financial status, whereas people like me who would like to buy the product upfront and centre. It's sad because i always look forward to the next release of Abode CS, and i like having the software installed on my computer and laptop. I guess everyone has there own points of view to this.

I mainly use Flash 8, but will use Flash CS6 more when i get a Cintiq Tablet. I also have Toonboom Animate installed, i don't use it, also due to me waiting to get a cintiq so i can use it to it's full potential. Like Peter, i have many software's i use, but i guess in the end it's all down to personal preference. I will not be paying monthly for Abobe CC. I will continue to use the predecessors.

Lastly, Why can't we talk in a civilized manner without insulting each other, this always happens on these threads. State your point of view and move on.

I'll just quickly throw this out here (correct me if I'm wrong so I can say I'm so fucking sorry...)

Anyone that owns a copy of flash pirated or paid for, none of this will affect you in any way. So don't worry.

No one on this site will use even half of this, "big large supreme shit load premium" package Adobe is selling...
Jeff is right when he says this is a good deal, but it isn't really for anyone that uses this website (since most of us are 11-24 yr olds) and so this is not much of our concern at all really. It's probably for big crazy animator editor illustrator hood gangs out there, that work for big money, and are greatly known for their creations or whatever.

So anyone that says "ooo, yeah, I'm really considering this package. Ahh it's a light tussle for me" are all dumb, pretentious, mislead, wobbly twats that can seriously bun off like mad~



ToonBoom is entirely up to you, I don't even...

Quote from Drifts

Lastly, Why can't we talk in a civilized manner without insulting each other, this always happens on these threads. State your point of view and move on.

Because "these threads" require the slightest amount of mental effort from those who want to participate in the discussion, and there is always a huge group of half-wits who are too lazy and/or stupid to learn about the topic of discussion before reacting to it. It's always up to me, jeff, scarecrow or someone else to teach these morons and explain why they're wrong, just because they don't want to spend 5-10 minutes reading about something before having an opinion about it.

You make us sound like we're irrationally and unreasonably "angry" for no reason. This isn't anger, it's frustration, and it's fairly appropriate considering how often we wind up having to explain this sort of shit.