Hey everyone,

As u can see every new patch decrese Chaos.
-You remember old Order costs? Swordwrath: 150->125 gold,Archer:350->300 gold,Albowtross 250->200 mana,Magikill 500->400 mana.
And this is old Chaos costs that has been changed: Dead: 300->350->300 mana,Medusa 500->400 mana, (i think) Eclipsor 200->150 mana.
So at this thing you see that all empires had decreased unit cost but still Order had more.
-Let's see.What empire have more spells?Order or Chaos?
Order:
Purchasable spells:1. Miner hustle 2. Miner Wall 3.Passive Income Gold 4.Tower Spawn 5.Resilience 6.Cure 7.Giant Growth 8.Poison Spray 9.Electric Wall(New name: Magikill wall) 10.Castle Archer 11.Fire Arrows 12.Blazing Bolts 13.Rage 14.Shield Wall 15.Shield Bash 16. Shinobi
Spells that units have at start:
1.Heal 2.Explosion
So its 18 spells.
Let's see Chaos:
Purchasable spells1. Miner hustle 2.Miner Tower 3.Passive income gold 4.Tower spawn 5.Resilience 6.Venom Flux 7.Giant Growth 8.Hell fists 9.Castle dead 10.Poison guts 11.Pack Mentality 12.Predator edge 13.Charge
Spells that units have at start:
1.Reaper 2.Pertify(Stone face) 3.Detonate explosive
So its 16 spells.So Order is winning again.
-Castle Archers deal area damage,Castle dead can hit only one unit,no matter cause they poison it.one Castle Archer can kill 18 archers easy,But Castle dead need alot time to kill them all.
-I asked CJ few days before burn damage realesed that Chaos have only one guy who can do burn damage:Bomber,and that Order have 3 units who can du burn dmg:Archer,Magikill,Albowtross.So Order is winning again.His answer was:"Yeah but Chaos have more poison".Really? Let's see
Chaos: Deads,Castle Deads and Medusa Order:Magikill and Shadowrath .Same number of units(Catle dead isnt unit) so lets analyse "Chaos have more poison".Deads are powerful just because of poison,but 1-3 castle deads are not enought to stop(example)alot of swordwraths to destroy their statue.Medusa can only put poison on groud so they NEED to step there to get poisoned.You can even avoid that,just go to the top/bottom/middle of the map and you didnt touch it.Magikill have so big range for poison spray so he can easy poison someone,so he is in rank of deads.Shadowraths need to do Shinobi but thanks to Shinobi,shadowraths are one of the best unit in SE.Poison just support power of Shinobi.In patch of burn damage,Shinobi's poison increased.So now we can say that shadowraths are rank between Medusa and Deads so we can say that Order is winning even in poinson.

So guys,you can now see why is Order more and more powerful than Chaos in last time.And this is one question for CJ and brock:
Why we even pay for Chaos?Look at this all things.So people are paying chaos and you decrease it's power and free empire is better than bought empire?Seriously?

*Gets a bag of popcorn*

I'd like to point out before the raging and trolling starts that this OP will cause that balancing must happen around the meta that it is in. When Chaos was really strong there were few people that could use it as well as now and so although that didn't justify making it strong then, realising that it needed nerfs happened later.

Sword > Crawler, and Albow > Eclip if you're going to be really stupid and say each unit should matchup evenly (regardless of the fact it's a game about your army than a single unit) but if you actually ask high elo players all the balancing issues are to do with Elementals right now.

Just because Chaos used to be stronger than it was meant to does not justify keeping it that way now.

Listing the number of spells as if that means anything is laughable, with so many spells being better than others and many spells not getting much use in game.

How about you say why Order is more powerful by an in-game perspective? As we are talking about the matchup and in game performance of them, not stats surrounding them that mean next to nothing.

Quote from jerrytt

*Gets a bag of popcorn*

Maybe it's because Chaos was imbalanced. Now it's fair.

Yes, order empire won the last big tournament. But let's break down some facts; not only was this the first time Order's won a SE tourney of this caliber, it did so with 4 other chaos players in the finals of brackets. This means chaos is still powerful enough to contend. No serious harm has been done to the empire.

If anything, you may even see further tweaks over burn. For real, why the heck is that much damage needed?

I think order and chaos are pretty balanced on the units
but just the turret is a bit up compared to wall I guess?

Is turrets even comparable to walls? Then again, blind gate.

Maybe add poison damage to BOMBERS TOOO!?!?!??!?!?!

Because Chaos isn't favoured at all in any MU, in any map!!!!!!!

Does the turret poison? If not, do you think it should?
If it does, should it's damage be increased?

Turrets are fine as they are. The damage they do is already very high and adding poison on top of it would be completely unnecessary. There is a good reason they were nerfed in the past.

There is no need to change turrets. Dead wall + turrets = fucking hella hard stalling. Turrets have uses for tower holding, defending units under base pressure, but they shouldn't be used as anything more. Giving them more damage is like buffing castle archers. Don't do that.

I'd just like to point out that your entire analysis has been based on counting each empire's options, rather than seeing how viable and powerful each option is in actual combat. So Order has 18 technologies as opposed to Chaos' 16. So what? That's not really proving anything, because if Chaos had 16 amazing technologies and Order had 18 crap techs, then Chaos would be way better off.
You also mentioned the reduction of costs; how things were in the past isn't relevant to how balanced chaos is now. Maybe in the past Chaos was OP and they had to decrease order's costs to make up for it. You actually have to prove that order has much more cost efficient units than chaos.
Regarding burn: Order has 3 units that can burn, but Order burn doesn't come into play much. Archers require research to inflict burn once every 17 seconds--that burn is just on one or two targets and is negligible compared to the damage of the actual farrows, since it doesn't stack. Albows and mages don't see much use until the late game, which usually doesn't happen. Compare that to bombers, which chaos uses right off the bat, one at a time, and they deal a crapload of burn damage. Order may have more units that can cause burn, but Chaos uses burn much more effectively.
Regarding poison, you again have flawed reasoning. Magikill, Shadowrath and Medusa generally aren't seen unless the game drags on, so that leaves us with deads, which are used extensively in the mid-game. So again, Order usually doesn't use much poison, while Chaos can use it extensively.
Now I'm not going to comment on whether Chaos is overall balanced; I'll leave that to more experienced players. I'm just pointing out why your analysis is wrong.

I think its all balanced apart from the marrowkia (It needs a third spell i have a thread on that in chaos and i mentioned it in the ideas four mum and could u return medusa to 5 bars instead of 4 plz.

Quote from 59saintdane

I'd just like to point out that your entire analysis has been based on counting each empire's options, rather than seeing how viable and powerful each option is in actual combat. So Order has 18 technologies as opposed to Chaos' 16. So what? That's not really proving anything, because if Chaos had 16 amazing technologies and Order had 18 crap techs, then Chaos would be way better off.
You also mentioned the reduction of costs; how things were in the past isn't relevant to how balanced chaos is now. Maybe in the past Chaos was OP and they had to decrease order's costs to make up for it. You actually have to prove that order has much more cost efficient units than chaos.
Regarding burn: Order has 3 units that can burn, but Order burn doesn't come into play much. Archers require research to inflict burn once every 17 seconds--that burn is just on one or two targets and is negligible compared to the damage of the actual farrows, since it doesn't stack. Albows and mages don't see much use until the late game, which usually doesn't happen. Compare that to bombers, which chaos uses right off the bat, one at a time, and they deal a crapload of burn damage. Order may have more units that can cause burn, but Chaos uses burn much more effectively.
Regarding poison, you again have flawed reasoning. Magikill, Shadowrath and Medusa generally aren't seen unless the game drags on, so that leaves us with deads, which are used extensively in the mid-game. So again, Order usually doesn't use much poison, while Chaos can use it extensively.
Now I'm not going to comment on whether Chaos is overall balanced; I'll leave that to more experienced players. I'm just pointing out why your analysis is wrong.

If Order units play 1v1 we will get this results: Enslaved Miner vs Miner=Tie , Crawler vs Swordwrath=Sword win,Archer vs Dead=Dead win,Marrowkai vs Meric=Marrow wins,Magikill vs Medusa=Medusa wins,Jugger vs Spearton=Jugger wins,Bomber vs Shadowrath=Shadow win,Albow vs Eclipsor=Albow wins,Giant vs Enslaved giant=Enslaved giant wins.Even if dead is better in 1v1,Archer can avoid dead's gut,and archer can kite.Marrowkai is better in 1v1 with meric,but few meric can make Order win,Meric is better than Chaos's Auto heal and cure.Medusa is one of the best unit for 1v1,she can jut kill somebody(exept giant),but magikill is best in big battles,he can poison every unit,burn dmg every unit,and dmg it with his electric wall.maybe jungger is better in 1v1,but still,spearton can use his shield and get armor,so he can be like kind of miner wall.Between,spearton has bigger Attack speed than Jugger.Even when one patch said that giant growth lvl 2(For chaos giant) gives more healt,Enslaved giant is stronger when both giants have giant growth lvl 2.Btw Enslaved giants can kite.
-Medusa healt bar and Stone face are decresed.Now Medusa can't ston other medusa.
-Even if CJ want to make balance,that balance is little unfair.So people are paying Chaos to lose?Chaos can win only if he attacks at start.Cost of archer and sword are now best for stopping Chaos in their attack.Common tell me,is little maps fair for chaos players?There is a 5-20% that Chaos will beat order in little maps.

Quote from lazar72

If Order units play 1v1 we will get this results: Enslaved Miner vs Miner=Tie

Negative, chaos miners have regen.

The largest fallacy in this is how it's coming from just a number of technologies and not the power of each. Not only that, unit macro isn't even considered. This holds no weight.