Quote from Raptor

To be honest, the problem isn't what we would've done. Yes, many of us may have pulled the trigger had we been assaulted, but that does not make the situation any more just. As the job of a cop, its his duty to not prematurely rely on instincts like "shoot first, decide later." He should be trained to not rely on his gun and instead rely on other methods of defense that do not lead to using lethal force. Let's be honest, we shouldn't have "overweight and much older men" to be chasing "younger more athletic men" in the first place. We train cops to avoid scenarios like these, and if there are no cops out there capable of beating teenagers one on one in the first place, then the police force is a flawed concept to begin with.

And this is all assuming that the cop had a good reason to stalk the guy in the first place. I'm sure he did have one (since apparently the kid was high), but god forbid he doesn't.

Its important to note that Zimmerman was not a police officer, he was neighboorhood watch, using a badge would've been more apt in this case. Furthermore, if zimmerman was a cop, he would totally have been screwed if this happened, it wouldn't have been debatable.

You guys are all missing the point. Sure he was a bit silly just following the guy, but the fact is he was attacked physically.

That's the kids fault (unless evidence suggesting Zimmerman initiated the violence states otherwise). Following someone and being a bit of a tool isn't justification to attack them. Shooting someone in self defense while being assaulted is.

Quote from The Organization

Its important to note that Zimmerman was not a police officer, he was neighboorhood watch, using a badge would've been more apt in this case. Furthermore, if zimmerman was a cop, he would totally have been screwed if this happened, it wouldn't have been debatable.

Then its really the fault of both the neighborhood watch and Zimmerman. Clearly he isn't fit to subdue young teenagers who know how to fight. I don't see why he was appointed such an athletic job in the first place if he isn't capable of doing a good job at it. And Zimmerman wasn't thinking at all. A death could've simply been avoided if he followed protocol or had protocol to begin with. Don't have a neighborhood watch if you don't even have proper enforcers and proper protocol.

Quote from Cronos

That's the kids fault (unless evidence suggesting Zimmerman initiated the violence states otherwise). Following someone and being a bit of a tool isn't justification to attack them. Shooting someone in self defense while being assaulted is.

I dunno, if I was being stalked then I'd feel threatened too, especially during a rainy night.

You're trying to make it sound like he saw the kid murder someone and was being stupid by chasing after him for that reason. He probably saw him doing some illegal misdemeanor shit and called the police and figured he should catch up to him to keep an eye on him because he more than likely didn't think the situation would have escalated like it did. If he saw the kid shoot someone I highly doubt he would try to take justice into his own hands. I wouldn't think that a kid would turn around and jump someone who is older than them, especially if they weren't up to something bad. So truthfully Zimmerman had no way to know what the kids intentions were so that justifies why he should not have revealed his weapon. I'm sorry but if someone has me planted in a fight and is beating the shit out of me then I would love to have a gun in my hand to even the playing field. If the mount was executed properly I'm surprised as to how Zimmerman even got his hands on his weapon.

I don't know, everyone is playing into the fact that Zimmerman is in the wrong because he shot a kid and should have done things differently and what have you, but it's always easier to look in hindsight to find our mistakes rather than to think about our options in the heat of the moment. The kid had to have been doing something for Zimmerman to call the police, he had to have done something to be scared and run, and it must have been something bad or in spite for him to attack Zimmerman. Yes you can say things could have been handled differently but that's the same as saying "if security had taken extra precautions and done so and so differently 9/11 could have been prevented."

What he did is self defense. Some lady said that based on the cuts on Zimmermans head there is no way his head hit the concrete more than once. I've hit my head several times on shit like hard ass wood and concrete. Fuck I hit my head on the thick ass steel beams at work last night and I didn't bleed, but it was/is still enough to disorient and cause pain to your head. So the kid hit his head hard enough to cause the skin to break and bleed in several spots, that alone is enough to make the punches hurt two or three times as much. Plus if the kid had his knees on Zimmerman's shoulders, there would be no way he could have fought back especially with him being overweight. He's just some guy that was trying to do the right thing and took it a bit far and things happened.

I guess since we like looking in hindsight we should be able to say if the kid didn't do anything wrong he would still be alive today shouldn't we?

Edit: Raptor, I'm pretty sure a neighborhood watch isn't supposed to be some sort of clan of vigilantism where they dress up as batmen and fight crime at night. They are the neighborhood WATCH. Also, it's fun to note that there are overweight police officers with the same body build like Zimmerman. So he must have been moving pretty quickly for the kid to feel his only option left was to turn and fight.

Quote from Arch-Angel

You're trying to make it sound like he saw the kid murder someone and was being stupid by chasing after him for that reason. He probably saw him doing some illegal misdemeanor shit and called the police and figured he should catch up to him to keep an eye on him because he more than likely didn't think the situation would have escalated like it did. If he saw the kid shoot someone I highly doubt he would try to take justice into his own hands. I wouldn't think that a kid would turn around and jump someone who is older than them, especially if they weren't up to something bad. So truthfully Zimmerman had no way to know what the kids intentions were so that justifies why he should not have revealed his weapon. I'm sorry but if someone has me planted in a fight and is beating the shit out of me then I would love to have a gun in my hand to even the playing field. If the mount was executed properly I'm surprised as to how Zimmerman even got his hands on his weapon.

I don't know, everyone is playing into the fact that Zimmerman is in the wrong because he shot a kid and should have done things differently and what have you, but it's always easier to look in hindsight to find our mistakes rather than to think about our options in the heat of the moment. The kid had to have been doing something for Zimmerman to call the police, he had to have done something to be scared and run, and it must have been something bad or in spite for him to attack Zimmerman. Yes you can say things could have been handled differently but that's the same as saying "if security had taken extra precautions and done so and so differently 9/11 could have been prevented."

What he did is self defense. Some lady said that based on the cuts on Zimmermans head there is no way his head hit the concrete more than once. I've hit my head several times on shit like hard ass wood and concrete. Fuck I hit my head on the thick ass steel beams at work last night and I didn't bleed, but it was/is still enough to disorient and cause pain to your head. So the kid hit his head hard enough to cause the skin to break and bleed in several spots, that alone is enough to make the punches hurt two or three times as much. Plus if the kid had his knees on Zimmerman's shoulders, there would be no way he could have fought back especially with him being overweight. He's just some guy that was trying to do the right thing and took it a bit far and things happened.

I guess since we like looking in hindsight we should be able to say if the kid didn't do anything wrong he would still be alive today shouldn't we?

The ability to look back in hindsight allows us learn from our mistakes. There's a difference from what we would've done from what we should've done. From the beginning I understood the other side of the argument and I'm not going to start a riot now that Zimmerman's not guilty, but that still doesn't excuse the result. Its just as easy to say "any of us would have done it" and shove it aside as it is to look back in hindsight. I'm not going to strike vengeance, but this isn't an incident that should be ignored.

Quote from Arch-Angel

Also, it's fun to note that there are overweight police officers with the same body build like Zimmerman. So he must have been moving pretty quickly for the kid to feel his only option left was to turn and fight.

Stalking someone in the middle of a rainy night is enough of a reason to turn back and fight. He probably thought he could take the guy instead of leading him to his house or something. Who knows. In any case, I misunderstood the duty of the neighborhood watch a little bit with my last comment, I keep confusing them to have similar duties to a cop.

Quote from The Organization

Its like climbing into a tiger cage at the Zoo, and then being surprised when it attacks you.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but negligence is negligence.

Except that this is a person, not a tiger. You don't generally expect to be jumped by a person.

The lesson is, don't give guns to the fucking public.

It wouldn't matter if Zimmerman had been walking down the street minding his own business when a kid jumped out and started punching him. If the attacker is unarmed there is no threat to your life, and that makes shooting them an unreasonable use of force.

The idea of a 'neighborhood watch' that isn't just a focused section of a thoroughly trained police force is pretty dumb anyway, regardless of whether or not they're armed.

Also, frail? Much older? George Zimmerman isn't even past his twenties right now. I won't argue that he's not overweight, but that's not a perfect measure of how good someone is at combat, and if he *isn't* good at it, he shouldn't be trying to "protect" anybody.

Quote from Zed

The lesson is, don't give guns to the fucking public.

It wouldn't matter if Zimmerman had been walking down the street minding his own business when a kid jumped out and started punching him. If the attacker is unarmed there is no threat to your life, and that makes shooting them an unreasonable use of force.

I disagree. My justifications would be that you never know what people are capable of nor do you know of their intentions. You can take the guns from the innocent but are you going to take the hidden knives from the guilty?

If the attacker had a knife and an intent to kill, Zimmerman would have been dead before he hit the ground.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. If Zimmerman saw him coming and got a glimpse of the blade he could have properly defended himself. There isn't much you would do if someone came up from behind you and stabbed you, but you can negate a lot of cutting by making a decent attempt at defending yourself head on.

We're talking about two average Joe's, not a special trained killer versus some random guy.

Edit: Just saw your edit, Fusion. It was to my understanding he was in his early thirties. Whatever. Being overweight will weaken his knees which is never bueno. Also, I don't get where this idea of a neighnorhood watch is coming from from you all. It's like everyone elses idea is that it's a gang of vigilante's trying to enforce their own justice lol. I always figured a neighborhood watch was like a group of neighbors who conducted meetings to talk and keep an eye out for anything them may deem suspicious that was going on so they could alert the authorities.

I can definitely see the points in both arguments.

But, if the neighborhood watch is just about meetings and searching for suspicious activity to report to the cops, then why does Zimmerman have a gun? If it is in fact for self defense, shouldn't he have been trained to know how to use it for self defense, and not murder? If not, then that is the fault of the community for giving the neighborhood watch guns and not teaching them where to shoot so they don't kill the aggressor, whoever it may be.

The neighborhood watch didn't administer guns lol. He more than likely had a concealed weapons permit and couldn't see straight after getting fucked up :/ plus if I'm in a possible life or death situation all I know is I'm just shooting :/

Quote from Arch-Angel

It's like everyone elses idea is that it's a gang of vigilante's trying to enforce their own justice lol. I always figured a neighborhood watch was like a group of neighbors who conducted meetings to talk and keep an eye out for anything them may deem suspicious that was going on so they could alert the authorities.

They are, but obviously George Zimmerman didn't get that since he thinks he should just go and follow people around instead of just calling the police like he's supposed to.

Zimmerman was instructed not to pursue Treyvon by the police. There were no witnesses, just a roughed up man and a dead kid. There is no way to know who the aggressor was. I'm a Texan so I'm not gonna say no to guns but you can use a gun as threat detterence for self defense. Not doing that or not staying back is provoking a fight. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed him regardless of how suspicious treyvon martin looked to him, that is the job of the police

Watch programs are never supposed to approach vigilantism is illegal. Unless he saw treyvon martin with a weapon in his hand, he doesn't even have probable cause at that point its just profiling