Is smash popular on the forums? Any groups or teams?

Quote from Salt

Ayy lmao dude I'm not a big enough idiot to come out while I'm still here. I'll come out when I'm a financially independent adult who can (and will) live somewhere else where I won't be judged.

eh well if you can do that then good luck. I wish I was rich so I can say with certainty that financial independence and moving to other places is an inevitability.

Quote from Smile

eh well if you can do that then good luck. I wish I was rich so I can say with certainty that financial independence and moving to other places is an inevitability.

I never said it was inevitable, but it's the plan lol. I'm not rich at all, I'm placing all my bets on school performance and being smart enough to get around life.

Quote from lewislewis

Is smash popular on the forums? Any groups or teams?

I guess it's semi-popular? I'm sure a good chunk of us watch Smash, but only a handful actually play it competitively, and even less than that are able to actually go on netplay online.

Quote from Exilement

oh daaaamn, nish just got shut the fuck down. it's about time someone stands up to his tyranny.

The only one standing up to tyranny is me.

Quote from Terroarc

:D..I see,I'm glad I did...

Charry was sarcastic, man.

Quote from Raptor

Ehh, I still don't really enjoy the way certain characters are designed in PM, which isn't necessarily the PM Dev teams fault since some characters just don't fit within the Melee mold no matter how much you modify them. One example of a character that sticks out like a sore thumb is DDD.

There are also characters which I don't think the PM Dev team necessarily has a good idea what their doing with, the most prominent one being Squirtle imo. Either way, I enjoy Melee more simply because their tends to be less gimmicks in it and the overall match up spread in PM is incredibly overwhelming.


Well, whatever. I've built up a huge resource of 3.5 videos for pretty much every character on a Smash forum. If you want, I can share the thread with you if you want more video resources for each character.

I agree DDD is pretty strange, but he was strange in brawl too. But look at olimar, jiggs and icies, no one is playing those characters either. Luckily the dev team has the luxury of being able to keep updating the game.

Squirtle though? Squirtle is probably the highest skill roof character on the roster right now, the raw input demand of squirtle is staggering. If you play flawlessly Squirtle will absolutely shit stomp the enemy player, but if you mess up be prepared to get KO'd easily and countered by simple inputs. So I disagree with your opinion there.

Incoming rant.
As a wrestling fan it pisses me off endlessly how the smash community at large misuses the word "gimmick"
1: a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
Attention and business
Publicity: see any nintendo sponsored major.

The entire premise of super smash brothers being family-centric by using all star characters that everyone already knows and loves from their favorite franchises sounds pretty damn gimmicky to me. Smash bros revolves around a gimmick.

But unlike the smash community and their collective epic failure to find a thesaurus and identify the definition of the word, they choose to create their own definition for it and to use it as a pejorative targeted at other games in the series.

But I don't use "gimmick" in a purely derogatory way, so, what is a gimmick?

Like in pro wrestling, why should I care about the people on tv? The gimmick defines the character, no one cares about Terry Gene Bollea but people love Hulk Hogan because Hulk Hogan is a gimmick. Like reflector shields and lasers, or jiggly puffs rest. Why should the player be interested in the character? Without the gimmick, the ability to define the character, what makes it unique, no one would be interested in playing.

Gimmicks aren't this negative thing meant to slight the skill of whomever is playing said gimmicky character. No, gimmicks are actually integral to allowing the audience to connect with characters.

Even then, even if you're arguing that the PM dev team is deliberately making characters gimmicky and that it's also in some way a negative thing. Then explain to me why the mostly unchanged melee characters are among the most popular on netplay?
What's really attracting attention here?

i tried to practice using netplay once but the fact that i had to use an xbox 360 controller instead of a gamecube controller drove me away

do you guys actually have some sort of gamecube controller adapter devices?

Quote from Index

i tried to practice using netplay once but the fact that i had to use an xbox 360 controller instead of a gamecube controller drove me away

do you guys actually have some sort of gamecube controller adapter devices?

Yeah bro, you can get adapters for it.

I just don't have one because I'm broke, but they're only like 20 bucks.

Hop on anthers ladder and ask people what they pay and which one they use.

Quote from Jutsu

I just don't have one because I'm broke

what do you use then?

Quote from Index

what do you use then?

My left over usb 360 controller from when I moved across the country.

Didn't have access to my gcube when I had to split, honestly if I had my game cube controller I would've gotten an adapter by now.

i didn't really _hate_ using a 360 controller but i didn't want to put time into practicing on that and then not have it translate over to GC

pretty sure you can't show up to a tournament IRL with a 360 controller

Quote from Index

i didn't really _hate_ using a 360 controller but i didn't want to put time into practicing on that and then not have it translate over to GC

pretty sure you can't show up to a tournament IRL with a 360 controller

Yeah when I go to locals the transition from my usb 360 to their beat up game cube controllers is pretty rough man.
Especially for shield dropping.

Quote from Jutsu

I agree DDD is pretty strange, but he was strange in brawl too. But look at olimar, jiggs and icies, no one is playing those characters either. Luckily the dev team has the luxury of being able to keep updating the game.

No one plays Olimar because he's boring (I've asked many players, this seems to be a very common answer), no one plays Puff because she stayed the same whereas everyone got insane kill/recovery options, and ICs, alongside many other problems, literally has a glitch with the grabbing system that makes them unappealing. DDD is better than all three of these characters (by a long shot dare I say), I simply don't like the way he was designed. At least it was a bit more bearable in Brawl, but a heavy character with such a strange and weird Up-b feels so out of place in a Melee physics engine and doesn't mesh well. Put DDD on Dreamland and any MU automatically becomes a thousand times harder simply because it's so hard to kill him.

Squirtle though? Squirtle is probably the highest skill roof character on the roster right now, the raw input demand of squirtle is staggering. If you play flawlessly Squirtle will absolutely shit stomp the enemy player, but if you mess up be prepared to get KO'd easily and countered by simple inputs. So I disagree with your opinion there.

Oh come on. Squirtle is not a great character. Technically demanding sure, but he isn't a great character. Shell-shifting tactics are technical, but they don't actually add much to his current tool kit. His recovery can be good/bad depending on the MU, his side-b means that you have to commit hard on them, and his combo game is mediocre at best assuming your opponent isn't Marth or something and doesn't have bad DI. His traction, while giving him good surprise options OoS and allows him to cover ledge options, also gives him a very poor crouch cancelling game, which is very detrimental to a character that to begin with has poor range.

Don't get me wrong, Squirtle isn't a bad character, but imo it'd be very disingenuous to say that Squirtle is "the most amazing character if played right" because that would simply be ignoring his flaws glaring flaws outside of his "technical inputs". And "the highest skill roof character" on the roster right now definitely doesn't belong to squirtle. That title easily goes to Yoshi, followed by Fox, ICs, and then maybe Squirtle.

But I digress; whether or not Squirtle is a threatening character is irrelevant to my argument, since a dangerous character can still be poorly designed (ex. 3.0 Mewtwo).

The reason I say Squirtle feels like a poorly designed character is simply because a lot of his tools simply don't seem to mesh well together. It feels like they put a lot of ideas into one character and it simply doesn't feel like they add on top of each other.

But I don't use "gimmick" in a purely derogatory way

Neither did I. "Gimmicks" in the context of fighting games aren't necessarily a bad thing. If anything, they can add more to character individuality in making characters feel more unique (to clear this up, I use the word "gimmick" to define a mechanic unique to one character ie. Peaches float). However, when a game has a lot of gimmicks, then the game feels much too overwhelming for my tastes and farther from the base metagame. I like Melee's set-up better since it's more simplistic and has a good balance in not having too many gimmicky characters.

It isn't a bad thing at all. Some people like having characters that have unique abilities because like I said, it adds to the individuality. Personally, I don't like it when there's too much of it, and that's what current PM feels like alongside the characters that feel like they just don't belong.

Quote from Raptor

No one plays Olimar because he's boring (I've asked many players, this seems to be a very common answer), no one plays Puff because she stayed the same whereas everyone got insane kill/recovery options, and ICs, alongside many other problems, literally has a glitch with the grabbing system that makes them unappealing. DDD is better than all three of these characters (by a long shot dare I say), I simply don't like the way he was designed. At least it was a bit more bearable in Brawl, but a heavy character with such a strange and weird Up-b feels so out of place in a Melee physics engine and doesn't mesh well. Put DDD on Dreamland and any MU automatically becomes a thousand times harder simply because it's so hard to kill him.

I agree with you about Olimar and about how Puff is the same, but wouldn't that make puff an example of how trying to follow the melee mold is actually being detrimental to the game?
Honestly I don't really know what you're on about with DDD, I've never had a hard time against one, he's too damn slow and can't land a lot of his attacks without heavy prediction it seems. So if your movement skills are superior you'll just be able to dance all over DDD's grill until the player loses their will to fight.

Quote from Raptor

Oh come on. Squirtle is not a great character. Technically demanding sure, but he isn't a great character. Shell-shifting tactics are technical, but they don't actually add much to his current tool kit. His recovery can be good/bad depending on the MU, his side-b means that you have to commit hard on them, and his combo game is mediocre at best assuming your opponent isn't Marth or something and doesn't have bad DI. His traction, while giving him good surprise options OoS and allows him to cover ledge options, also gives him a very poor crouch cancelling game, which is very detrimental to a character that to begin with has poor range.

Squirtle is a great character in the right hands and pretty much what you're saying about him is a matter of your personal opinion. Personally I prefer his slippery traction over say Sanics sticky feet, because I value the ability to manipulate neutral and tech chases over CC game.

One mans trash is another mans treasure.

Quote from Raptor

Don't get me wrong, Squirtle isn't a bad character, but imo it'd be very disingenuous to say that Squirtle is "the most amazing character if played right" because that would simply be ignoring his flaws glaring flaws outside of his "technical inputs". And "the highest skill roof character" on the roster right now definitely doesn't belong to squirtle. That title easily goes to Yoshi, followed by Fox, ICs, and then maybe Squirtle.

You're speaking in absolutes, and it's ironic because I actually mentioned a couple of his weaknesses when I made that statement. He gets KO'd easily and if he isn't totally on point he'll be punished brutally by characters with superior KO options. Marths F-smash can actually blast right through the super armor on squirtles F-smash and special tilt. Truth is squirtle has low damage and not a ton of knock back, so you've really got to be all over your opponent to win with him.

So you're wrong about me ignoring his flaws, just because I think squirtle is absolutely incredible if played flawlessly doesn't mean I don't acknowledge his flaws. I could easily say the same about fox, but the truth is he has weaknesses too, especially off stage. That doesn't take away from the fact that if he's played flawlessly he's absolutely breath taking.

Again boiling down to personal opinion, I think out of all of them squirtle is the most skill intensive, then probably yoshi.

Quote from Raptor

But I digress; whether or not Squirtle is a threatening character is irrelevant to my argument, since a dangerous character can still be poorly designed (ex. 3.0 Mewtwo).

Yeah but 3.0 Mewtwo is stupid OP while squirtle in your words "isn't great."

Quote from Raptor

The reason I say Squirtle feels like a poorly designed character is simply because a lot of his tools simply don't seem to mesh well together. It feels like they put a lot of ideas into one character and it simply doesn't feel like they add on top of each other.

Again, personal opinion.

Squirtle is easily my best secondary, I'm sorry that when you try him you feel like he's poorly designed. When I play him everything flows more or less seamlessly and I can utilize most of his kit during a game. I happen to feel the exact opposite way you do.

Quote from Raptor

Neither did I. "Gimmicks" in the context of fighting games aren't necessarily a bad thing. If anything, they can add more to character individuality in making characters feel more unique (to clear this up, I use the word "gimmick" to define a mechanic unique to one character ie. Peaches float). However, when a game has a lot of gimmicks, then the game feels much too overwhelming for my tastes and farther from the base metagame. I like Melee's set-up better since it's more simplistic and has a good balance in not having too many gimmicky characters.

It isn't a bad thing at all. Some people like having characters that have unique abilities because like I said, it adds to the individuality. Personally, I don't like it when there's too much of it, and that's what current PM feels like alongside the characters that feel like they just don't belong.

This is so silly to me.

Like the game itself is still in progress, so it's not like a complete product yet.
It seems to me like you're saying "it has too much content, what do I do?"

Learn the effing match ups, duh.
Have fun.

PM is overwhelming to you, well melee is underwhelming to me.

Quote from Jutsu

I agree with you about Olimar and about how Puff is the same, but wouldn't that make puff an example of how trying to follow the melee mold is actually being detrimental to the game?

Well, it doesn't have to be, but this question is irrelevant to my point anyways. I'm not trying to say PM should be exactly like Melee, I just think that Melee has more consistent designs than PM atm among its viable characters. Puff they literally didn't touch when I think they should have buffed her, but I can't put that on them since I can't think of many ways to change her without messing with her method of gameplay.

Honestly I don't really know what you're on about with DDD, I've never had a hard time against one, he's too damn slow and can't land a lot of his attacks without heavy prediction it seems. So if your movement skills are superior you'll just be able to dance all over DDD's grill until the player loses their will to fight.

Because DDD can actually be pretty mobile with Waddle dee dashing, plus his waddle dees also increase the hitlag of moves, which can have a huge effect on the game at certain moments. DDD also has an insanely broken recovery mixed in with a ridiculously heavy weight class. DDD is also very good at gimping characters at low percents.

Combine that all together and you have a scary character in the right hands. Just watch the player called Ripple and see what he does with the character.

Squirtle is a great character in the right hands and pretty much what you're saying about him is a matter of your personal opinion.

The same could be said for you. I just hold this opinion that while Squirtle is an underrated character for sure, I just don't find much compelling evidence that he's a great character. A character can feel amazing to a certain player but still be mediocre. I'm sure that aMSa feels absolutely at home with Yoshi, but there's no denying that Yoshi is mid-tier at best. Even aMSa thinks that many of his MUs against the top tiers with Yoshi are extremely negative.

Personally I prefer his slippery traction over say Sanics sticky feet, because I value the ability to manipulate neutral and tech chases over CC game.

He has excellent tech chases with d-smash, yes. That being said, he doesn't have a very good neutral for the same reason why Luigi doesn't have a good one. He also lacks any solid shield pressure outside of shell shifting, and most of Squirtle's shield pressure get's destroyed by any character with a solid OoS option. Squirtle also has a difficult time dealing with characters that have a solid CC game. In regards to CC game, it's a vital mechanic that many characters get a massive benefit from. It's not about preferring a CC game, it's a vital tool that many characters of the cast has but Squirtle lacks: it's an obvious detriment and that's why I mentioned it.

I could easily say the same about fox, but the truth is he has weaknesses too, especially off stage.

Fox is amazing off-stage compared to most characters. Fox may not necessarily want to be off the stage, but neither do a lot of characters. In terms of recovery, Fox is absolutely phenomenal and borderline unfair. Not necessarily relevant to the argument, but I feel like this needed to be corrected.

Yeah but 3.0 Mewtwo is stupid OP while squirtle in your words "isn't great."

Yes? I don't see what this point was trying to argue since I literally just said how powerful a character isn't a testament to how well they're designed.

Like the game itself is still in progress, so it's not like a complete product yet.

Project M will never be a finished game until the developers get bored with it. The direction of PM at the moment is to balance it every so often. There is no finished deadline as of right now, nor is there any development goal. So this argument doesn't make sense to me.

It seems to me like you're saying "it has too much content, what do I do?"

That's not what I'm saying at all? Its just all the characters feel way too unnatural to me alongside many of these gimmicks. That's my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince others that's the way PM is.

Learn the effing match ups, duh.

In proportion to what the community views as a viable character, there are way too many MUs out their at the moment. In Melee, having 8 different viable characters already creates so many MUs that each players has to learn. Sorry to say that I personally don't want to literally learn a hundred MUs only to be janked out in the end.

well melee is underwhelming to me.

And that's to you. That's fine.