The Chat Thread

Started by: Lgolos | Replies: 158,197 | Views: 12,277,685 | Sticky

Vorpal
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Jul 25, 2015 4:37 AM #1386634
Quote from Raptor
Well, it doesn't have to be, but this question is irrelevant to my point anyways. I'm not trying to say PM should be exactly like Melee, I just think that Melee has more consistent designs than PM atm among its viable characters. Puff they literally didn't touch when I think they should have buffed her, but I can't put that on them since I can't think of many ways to change her without messing with her method of gameplay.

A couple ideas for puff off the top of my head would be to modify her sing and completely abscond with roll out, since both those moves are essentially useless.

Could turn sing into a forward facing cone that operated like mewtwo's confuse ability or squirtles bubble beam...I dunno, maybe make a mechanic where what was once roll out is an animation where she draws in air up to a max of three times and it determines the size of sings cone?

Quote from Raptor
Because DDD can actually be pretty mobile with Waddle dee dashing, plus his waddle dees also increase the hitlag of moves, which can have a huge effect on the game at certain moments. DDD also has an insanely broken recovery mixed in with a ridiculously heavy weight class. DDD is also very good at gimping characters at low percents.

Combine that all together and you have a scary character in the right hands. Just watch the player called Ripple and see what he does with the character.

Yeah I'll look him up, I'm sure someone is amazing as him somewhere but I don't know. Honestly, I've never faced a DDD that I'd consider good.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like I said, never had a problem with him and I don't see a lot of DDD taking sets at tourneys, or even a lot of DDD at all.


Quote from Raptor
The same could be said for you. I just hold this opinion that while Squirtle is an underrated character for sure, I just don't find much compelling evidence that he's a great character. A character can feel amazing to a certain player but still be mediocre. I'm sure that aMSa feels absolutely at home with Yoshi, but there's no denying that Yoshi is mid-tier at best. Even aMSa thinks that many of his MUs against the top tiers with Yoshi are extremely negative.

Yeah, it's totally my personal opinion. I'm not going to argue it like it's fact set in stone.


Quote from Raptor
He has excellent tech chases with d-smash, yes. That being said, he doesn't have a very good neutral for the same reason why Luigi doesn't have a good one. He also lacks any solid shield pressure outside of shell shifting, and most of Squirtle's shield pressure get's destroyed by any character with a solid OoS option. Squirtle also has a difficult time dealing with characters that have a solid CC game. In regards to CC game, it's a vital mechanic that many characters get a massive benefit from. It's not about preferring a CC game, it's a vital tool that many characters of the cast has but Squirtle lacks: it's an obvious detriment and that's why I mentioned it.

Also squirtle kinda has a sick nasty grab game, it's not like he's helpless when they have Oos or CC options, I'm usually in and out before they can counter when I see their shield is up. He has a lot of approach options making his neutral pretty good in my opinion.

I understand CC is a big mechanic, but the point of me mentioning why I like the slippery movements is to show that while he loses out in CC he actually gains quite a bit out of it. Whether or not you think one is more important than the other is up to you and probably match up dependent.


Quote from Raptor
Fox is amazing off-stage compared to most characters. Fox may not necessarily want to be off the stage, but neither do a lot of characters. In terms of recovery, Fox is absolutely phenomenal and borderline unfair. Not necessarily relevant to the argument, but I feel like this needed to be corrected.

You're thinkin' melee bro, not that great in PM where there's a larger list of recoveries to compare it to. Pretty easy to ledge guard over all too.

Quote from Raptor
Yes? I don't see what this point was trying to argue since I literally just said how powerful a character isn't a testament to how well they're designed.

My point is that mewtwo and squirtle aren't an apt comparison in pretty much any way.

Quote from Raptor
Project M will never be a finished game until the developers get bored with it. The direction of PM at the moment is to balance it every so often. There is no finished deadline as of right now, nor is there any development goal. So this argument doesn't make sense to me.

Argument? Why does everything have to be an argument with you?

It just seems to me like you're expecting release date quality out of something that is still heavily in the works.

Quote from Raptor
That's not what I'm saying at all? Its just all the characters feel way too unnatural to me alongside many of these gimmicks. That's my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince others that's the way PM is.

There you go, using gimmick as a pejorative. I'm sorry you're stuck at perceiving the series in the melee sort of way and that this deviation is "unnatural" but for open minded people like me it seems like the next natural progression. Instead of the tremendous step backwards that was smash 4.


Quote from Raptor
In proportion to what the community views as a viable character, there are way too many MUs out their at the moment. In Melee, having 8 different viable characters already creates so many MUs that each players has to learn. Sorry to say that I personally don't want to literally learn a hundred MUs only to be janked out in the end.

I have no idea how you melee players can see more viable characters as a negative thing. It's beyond me.

Janked out at the end? No jons bro, no jons.
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Jul 25, 2015 5:00 AM #1386643
i'm not reading these long posts but the debate between "more characters / more diverse" vs "master the winning core components" reminds me a lot of TF2

there is highlander where all 9 classes play, and then there's sixes... with six classes. in sixes, every team runs the same setup with two soldiers, two scouts, one med and one demo.

at first it seems like HL is the superior way to play, but after you spend more time watching both, it becomes pretty apparent than sixes is a better competitive mode, because the other classes simply slow down the game. the dynamics between the smaller amount of classes is insanely superior to that of the classes that get kicked out. so it's not about quantity, it's about the metagame created between those classes and the game dynamics that come from that.

i'm totally satisfied and happy with the metagame of Melee. i honestly don't think it needs more characters thrown in there. like if i had the option i wouldn't transfer any brawl characters into melee, none of em improve the game in my opinion even if it's a technical "expansion"

if anything i'd delete characters like pichu lol
edit:
Quote from Raptor

Fox is amazing off-stage compared to most characters. Fox may not necessarily want to be off the stage, but neither do a lot of characters. In terms of recovery, Fox is absolutely phenomenal and borderline unfair. Not necessarily relevant to the argument, but I feel like this needed to be corrected.

...i wouldn't call it phenomenal. fox is good at edge guarding, but when he's forced to actually recover using up-B and doesn't have control, he doesn't have very good options and it's easy to kill him as long as you predict correctly. like, compare fox's recovery to pikachu's, jigglypuff's, samus's, or peach's-- you barely know what the fuck those characters are going to do when they're off stage in the air. definitely not "borderline unfair."
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Jul 25, 2015 5:24 AM #1386651
Quote from Index

...i wouldn't call it phenomenal. fox is good at edge guarding, but when he's forced to actually recover using up-B and doesn't have control, he doesn't have very good options and it's easy to kill him as long as you predict correctly. like, compare fox's recovery to pikachu's, jigglypuff's, samus's, or peach's-- you barely know what the fuck those characters are going to do when they're off stage in the air. definitely not "borderline unfair."


It's decent in melee, but not great at all in PM.

Like you said, it's really predictable and also it doesn't have a great distance, especially when you compare it to the rest of the PM roster. Ivysaur "my main" can down smash any spacey and if they're near the ledge, the angle sends them diagonally downwards which is like pure death to a spacey. Falco and Fox ain't coming back even with a double jump and before wolf reaches the ledge all I have to do is jump to it and click L or R at the right time. Don't know why wolf seems to be able to reach the ledge over the other two, but it's not a big deal.

Even if I launch falco/fox off at normal angles, Ivy's back air and tether make it a simple matter to fuck with them off stage.

Like my whole game plan against spacies is to uproot them off of the stage and send them out the side, because their offstage isn't great.
In my opinion wolf has the best off stage out of the three, just because his side B can be dangerous.

Edit: Oh man I just watched scar vs ken at kings of cali 2, how did I ever miss this set? Best of seven, pretty hype.
Hobbes
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Jul 25, 2015 6:45 AM #1386687
Yo jutsu I got it set up.
Vorpal
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Jul 25, 2015 6:56 AM #1386689
Just PM'd you my skype info, you got everything working?
Javelin
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Jul 25, 2015 9:56 AM #1386727
Do you guys have passion? It's something I've found I'm lacking. I want to be remembered after I die, and yet I have no real drive to go out and improve myself/do things.
Damian
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Jul 25, 2015 10:01 AM #1386729
You want to be remembered after you die, right? Well just take notice of the fact that you'll be forgotten and placed in a hole besides a zillion other people who died and were forgotten, unless you go out and do something about it. So go out there and build yourself a nice shrine and a get a nice tomb for your body to rest in for eternity.

Just realize that. You have to take action. Think about that and whatever it is you have to do, just do it. I know it sound like a joke with the whole Shia thing but there's a reason he was so intense with the "just do it". Because that's all there is to it. Simply do what you want to do. Pick yourself up, get moving, and just do it.
Vorpal
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Jul 25, 2015 10:03 AM #1386731
Quote from Javelin
Do you guys have passion? It's something I've found I'm lacking. I want to be remembered after I die, and yet I have no real drive to go out and improve myself/do things.

Passion? Yes, I've discovered recently that I'm passionate about meeting new people and making friends. That I'm passionate about learning about these people and helping whoever however I can, to be compassionate. Through this I find that for the first time in my life I'm happy and subsequently for the first time in my life I'm actually driven, obligated even, to press forward.

I wonder if up until now, if I had ever really tried at anything, to accomplish anything in my entire life. Did I ever really give anything my all?
Index
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Jul 25, 2015 10:16 AM #1386738
i'm very passionate about art yet i still have a hard time putting in the effort necessary to make my own, for example i was practicing piano a minute ago but now i'm here because i got lazy...
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Jul 25, 2015 10:19 AM #1386741
Quote from Index
i'm very passionate about art yet i still have a hard time putting in the effort necessary to make my own, for example i was practicing piano a minute ago but now i'm here because i got lazy...


This applies to every aspect of my life.
Devour
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Jul 25, 2015 10:20 AM #1386742
I'm passionate about space, and the idea that we're the generation that will unlock sci-fi levels of technology for the future. I think we'll develop faster than light travel within the next 100 years and clean fusion power by the next 50. I'm just not very book smart. All I have are ideas :u
Damian
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Jul 25, 2015 10:21 AM #1386744
Yet you still find the time and muster the effort to bother me when I'm trying to relax, playing League, with your Forum Game taunts. Like, come on bro.

Quote from Devour
I'm passionate about space, and the idea that we're the generation that will unlock sci-fi levels of technology for the future. I think we'll develop faster than light travel within the next 100 years and clean fusion power by the next 50. I'm just not very book smart. All I have are ideas :u


Ironic, considering you are a published bookwriter.
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Jul 25, 2015 10:26 AM #1386746
humans will never make a serious effort to travel outside of Earth simply because it's not financially viable for any government or corporation (and i strongly doubt it ever will be)
Javelin
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Jul 25, 2015 10:37 AM #1386750
Well, NASA has project ORION. The project aims to have people on mars from anywhere from 2030 to 2040.
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Jul 25, 2015 10:56 AM #1386753
let me rephrase that: i don't think space travel will ever become accessible to people who aren't astronauts doing multi-year-long tests. maybe millionaires going to the moon as a novelty. but no sci-fi future shit

we're all going to die right here on Earth