To be honest I did a quick Google search in hopes of answering the debate question. Thank you for providing the exact translation though it seems the meaning is heavily based off interpretation.

Calling the bible "bedtime stories" is just another way of calling it myths or fairytales. It's up to the individual to decide how they want to describe it as a myth.
It is a myth.

And I hope you're not misunderstanding me and assuming I'm against homosexuality, because that's not what I'm trying to portray.

Also:

from wiki:

Romans 1:26-27

Saint Paul writing his Epistles
In the Epistle to the Romans 1:26-27 (English Majority Text Version, EMTV), Paul writes

For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

^ Is this reliable? It's from the new testament. Hebrew to English translation here - http://www.sarshalom.us/resources/scripture/asv/html/romans.html

Quote from Xeno

To be honest I did a quick Google search in hopes of answering the debate question. Thank you for providing the exact translation though it seems the meaning is heavily based off interpretation. Also, thanks for insulting me for no reason... calm down man.

Calling the bible "bedtime stories" is just another way of calling it myths or fairytales. It's up to the individual to decide how they want to describe it as a myth.
It is a myth.

Yes, The Bible is very much up to interpretation, just like most things, in fact any household bible you've ever read was probably translated and tweaked in someway. Countless times have the original meaning been skewed to fit the moral teachings of the time or to benefit someone in a position of power.

I'm sorry for blowing your argument to smithereens the way I did, I have little patience for hypocrisy. Which is both hypocritical and ironic considering I have little patience for impatience. I would touch on this matter, but that's between you and Exilement at this point and I'm sure he has something to say about it.

You can think whatever you want about it, but don't be surprised if I correct you with the same harsh judgement you dish out.

Quote from Xeno

Jutsu I just gave you a new testament verse that condemns homosexuality... can you please respond to that and then explain how you "blew my argument to smithereens"

And I reread your post and realized it wasn't very insulting at all. No need for apology, my bad.

Give me a minute, contrary to what you believe the bible isn't a simple matter.

Quote from Xeno

Romans 1:26-27

Saint Paul writing his Epistles
In the Epistle to the Romans 1:26-27 (English Majority Text Version, EMTV), Paul writes

For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

First of all, wow, you really gave me a lot of work here. I hope you appreciate me doing the research for you. That quote has been the corner post of many religious folk wrongly justifying their prejudice. After all, if Paul an apostle supports it, who cares if they directly betray the teachings of Christ and pretend to carry out his faith? Paul's Epistles may be among the most misunderstood and difficult to translate chapters in the bible.

"15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles *referring to Paul's Epistles here*, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (KJV)
2 Peter 3:15-17
I'll admit, I'm just lazily using the King James Version here, since the meaning is all the same. Basically Peter's saying that we need to be careful when interpreting Paul's Epistles probably because they seem to directly contradict Jesus's teachings. Peter even warns about the folly of these writings. Actually much of the writings that have been done under his name that used to be held as unquestionably true are almost universally rejected by scholars, but this one isn't.

Part of the problem here is that ancient Greek is a somewhat lost language and some of the translations here are flimsy. For example the words "Passions of dishonor" have also been translated as "Vile affections and degrading passions -Amplified Bible" and various other nasty ways in other versions of the bible. The truth is we don't really know for certain what the original definition of that passage was and it's entirely likely that the earliest English translations were biased "as almost all English translations are". It's possible that the original meaning was referring to sexual orgies and warning about the dangers of careless sex - often committed by pagan cults at the time, in this context it makes sense. They had no real understanding of sexually transmitted diseases at the time. "and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error" I feel also reinforces this possibility, but sadly we'll never know.

The segment referring to natural sexual orientation has been the subject of dispute for sometime now, some people argue that it simply discourages forcing yourself into unnatural sexual situations, like if a gay man forces himself to be with a woman. Others on the opposing side of the argument say, no, because no. This is an argument that you and I could go on about for decades and not ever resolve.

When Paul says "contrary to nature" it's also been translated as "Sin with each other - Living Bible", "Against Nature - King James Version" and "immoral, unnatural drives -The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English". But the Greek phrase is para physin and it simply means deviating from the norm not necessarily in a good or bad sense, so the translation is seemingly inaccurate and highly up to interpretation *Like all of Paul's writing*. A better translation here would be, unconventional or something of the like.
Paul later uses the same Phrase to describe men with long hair as unusual in 1 Corinthians 11:14, but like many of his quotes has been translated and skewed. Many translations insisting that men with long hair are shameful, dishonorable and or unnatural.

It's also important to read the entire chapter to understand the context of this particular verse, since it's so loose in meaning. Remember this is his Epistle to the Romans a place of different culture than his own, and at the time homosexuality was pretty much perfectly okay socially. Which leads me to believe that this could easily be a warning against casual sex to the Romans "To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 7"

But man, I could go on and on here, what's really important is understanding the following.
Since neither of us are religious scholars it's impossible to really tell whether this is a stone cold condemnation of homosexuals or just misunderstood. And even if we were scholars, we could debate the definitions endlessly. Paul was a passionate man, but whatever he says here is superseded in biblical importance by Jesus who preached above all else love and tolerance.

I think the ambiguity of the quote leaves the definition, like most of the bible, in the eyes of the beholder. Affirming what I said earlier that it isn't the bible itself that condemns homosexuality, rather, ill informed biggots.

I agree. You pretty much summed it all up.


However I don't think the bible's a simple matter at all... but neither is Zeus, Thor, etc (I'm just nitpicking now so I'll stop.)

Quote from Xeno

I agree. You pretty much summed it all up.


However I don't think the bible's a simple matter at all... but neither is Zeus, Thor, etc (I'm just nitpicking now so I'll stop.)

Did you not refer to it as bed time stories?
I want you to understand, that whether you're aware of it or not and even for someone like me who detests religion that The Bible is not only relevant to our time but actually a very big deal. It doesn't matter if the stories in it are fictitious when something like this is such an enigmatic, prominent addition to the current zeitgeist that it's important that we show those people whom participate in it the exact same care and respect we expect when addressing our own beliefs on the matter.

Otherwise we'll just fight with them the same way it's been done for centuries.

Run-on sentences aside, I digress.
I found this enjoyable in a way.

...It's nice to brush the rust off of my brain once every now and then.

I completely understand that, and I didn't directly refer to them as bedtime stories(I'm too lazy to look back at my post so if I did please correct me)

I called them myths and acknowledged that myths are similar to bedtime stories. it's all how you wanna say it.

Just because it's a bedtime story doesn't make it any less important to our culture as a work of literature.

My point:
The bible is an extraordinary work of literature in a historical, cultural, and bedtime story sense. It's helped a good amount of people(a lot of the time in the form of a bedtime story). I used to have bible passages read to me before bed. The bible isn't gods word and it contains very little truth, but I doubt we disagree on this point.

Oh, and I apologize for all my grammatical errors. Must be a pain reading my sentences :P

Quote from Xeno

Most Americans refer to the Norse Gods as simple myths/fictional stories/legends. What makes The Bible any different?

Nothing. The Bible is a compilation of fairytales and myths. However you slice it, they're bedtime stories.

I can see how it can offend some people but honestly I don't care. That's like me saying Santa Claus is a fairytale character and you getting upset about it.

In short, the bible has little to no truth in it and most of the book contradicts itself anyway.

Quote from Xeno

and I didn't directly refer to them as bedtime stories(I'm too lazy to look back at my post so if I did please correct me)

Well, you did. I'm not sure how you meant it, or how cronos meant it. But I'm hoping Exilement chimes in and says something about it, because I need to sleep.

Oh. Same.

Edit: I explained to you exactly how I meant it idk why you're ignoring that part.

Although it deals with the issue in part by ridiculing the O.T, this image attempts to address some homophobia from the bible:
http://paxus.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/gay-marrigae-chart.jpg

Quote from Cronos

No it isn't. That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Calling these beliefs 'bed time stories' is a direct stab at the lack of evidence supporting those beliefs. Referring to them in such a way is perfectly accurate, until evidence pointing to the contrary is presented.

You're taking the politically correct stance that religious views should be exempt from criticism. Whether or not someone is offended by my dismissal of their unfounded, and often deranged beliefs is irrelevant.

my point was that insulting people for having an element of faith and belief in their lives is a childish and, in pwn3d's case, hypocritical position to take. it's also not the purpose of this thread, so go channel Sam Harris somewhere else.

Quote from Exilement

my point was that insulting people for having an element of faith and belief in their lives is a childish and, in pwn3d's case, hypocritical position to take. it's also not the purpose of this thread, so go channel Sam Harris somewhere else.

There he goes summing it up in two sentences, just like I knew he would. Fucking hell, exilement is great at explaining things.

You're doing a better job of it than I am. I'm just not very interested in having this discussion with cronos again, he seems to think I'm just a politically-correct coward for not taking pride in thinking less of everyone who views the world differently than I do. As if it's a virtue to lack basic compassion and respect for your fellow man.

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Being gay or lesbian means that you are not okay with your brain. We, like the animals were all born for the this single purpous: To give birth to the new generations, so it was and so it'll be. If there is something that makes you think otherwise, that means that your brain isn't functioning well. No I don't have any evidence, but if you look at the nature, you'll see that every single living thing fights and even gives it's life for a new generation. Every single animal in this world has only 1 main purpose: Giving a birth.

We are no different.

Yeah that's not true at all, homosexual behavior is extremely common in nature