I'm not disputing ele's ability to bring out fires after each other, I'm disputing Chaos's ability not to already have a wing mass by that point.

Edit: Haven't had time to watch these replays myself, so I don't know how related they are to this start but here's a quote from Rain:

EvC is an impossible matchup, and here's why:
-Airs cannot approach bombers
-Cycloids can't kill wings, they're too slow and too vulnerable to turrets
-Nothing else kills wings
-Nothing wants to take a bomber hit
-They have no means of cost effectively stopping bomber pressure

Don't believe me? Here's some replays.
http://www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7753767&version=2.22
http://www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7753820&version=2.22
http://www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7753882&version=2.22
http://www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7753927&version=2.22

Your replays are invalid, going airs is exactly what I said NOT TO DO. Also, one of these replays proves my point. In the third replay (going top to bottom) after taking losses, building airs and waters, his number of fires was still similar to the number of wings. In other replays he went either pure cycloid or mixing airs and fires, both are very ineffective against chaos.

Your (or rain's) points are invalid because of this:
-Airs should not be used EvC.
-Cycloids aren't used to straight up kill wings, you just use the tornado support and then fires to do the job.
-Early bomb pressure will be thwarted by splitting miners (like the way you split swords), the chaos player will either be confused and waste his bombs, or just run away. Waiting for miners to clump up won't really work since by the time the chaos player has bombs, I'll have a castle air.

The chaos play will still have delayed your econmoy gain and can still kill off one chompler on every dive. Do that on a chompler mostway through gold mining and that's 150+~75 gold for 100 + 75 + 75 + 75, an equal trade that also delays your other miners making gold, putting it in Chaos's favour.

As for airs not EvC, you'll have to take that up with Rain and WyzDM. Getting Rain to explain why fires don't work should clear up this thread or resolve it.

So um, do you have a replay to prove this strat works?

Quote from _Ai_

So um, do you have a replay to prove this strat works?

I haven't faced a single chaos player since the last patch, I haven't been playing a lot recently because of lag issues. However, I have a friend who used my strategy and beat this 2.1k chaos player twice. I better ask him for the link first.

Quote from Skeletonxf

The chaos play will still have delayed your econmoy gain and can still kill off one chompler on every dive. Do that on a chompler mostway through gold mining and that's 150+~75 gold for 100 + 75 + 75 + 75, an equal trade that also delays your other miners making gold, putting it in Chaos's favour.

As for airs not EvC, you'll have to take that up with Rain and WyzDM. Getting Rain to explain why fires don't work should clear up this thread or resolve it.

Sure, for the first run you can get away with maybe one miner since you have crawlers to tank and bombs behind, however if you come back, I will most likely have a castle air, which will eliminate any crawlers trying to tank for your bombs. For any runs later you will either run in with just bombs and have them die, or you have to wait to build more crawlers, which will take a while since bombers and crawlers are in the same que. With this your pressure won't be very effective. Having 5+ miners in the first minute, it would be very easy to replace any dead miners with earths that que in 4 seconds, having a lot of miners will also be why I can get a castle air a little early.

So my strategy against chaos is 3 waters, 3 infernos, 3 airs, 1 fire, and rest charrogs. then some other stuff. Noob Saibot(1950s) has given me great exp against wing massers. I am not really good at explaining, put here are the replays I could find in my records.
all wins by me (DM ONLY)
The ctrl + # thing is really useful btw.
www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7722586&version=2.22
www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7541598&version=2.22
www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7541470&version=2.22
hope the point stands. its better to use this strategy than constantly get cycloids/fires.
and he will not people to delay forever, as around 6-7 charrogs will usually be in my army(ground) and my infernos will be forcing to run around everywhere. then there is 3 waters to freeze spell casters, and yeah. just watch replays, i think i poorly explained myself.

Yes, suicide crawler won't be too much of a problem, but que times will. Unlike what you're saying, I won't be "hanging around base and not pressuring," Around the time of your second run I will have a fire as I have a good eco, since your first run got only one chompler.

Also, I asked my friend for the links to his replays, here they are:
www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7681159&version=2.22
www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7691376&version=2.22

EDIT: sorry, the second link is a CvC. Here's the EvC.
www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7638781&version=2.22

That first replay showed Chaos's ability to simply cheese earths quite well and how Chaos will have better eco after the bomb rushes - but the lack of kiting meant igora repeatedly took damage from your flames which they could have avoided, and igora over garrisoned the miners multiple times putting their eco considerably behind yours. Also igorra managed 2 chomplers in that first run, not on

That second replay, yeah, okay, this strategy works fairly well against an opponent not kiting you. I'm quite dubious if it will work on the longer maps with someone running bombs and kiting but, eh, it does seem to work fairly well for medium sized maps. I may try it if I get EvC on desert.

the thing about evc that i noticed is that for a good while you can build an eco quickly two second row as it is a bit before the first ranged units start appearing. hustle is usually something that is of importance early game to protect from bomb rushes into base.

Quote from PUMU

the thing about evc that i noticed is that for a good while you can build an eco quickly two second row as it is a bit before the first ranged units start appearing. hustle is usually something that is of importance early game to protect from bomb rushes into base.

I've noticed that myself, even EvO on the longer maps.

If only ele had mana heavy units you could put those soon-not-safe miners on mana and tech up really smoothly. :/

I don't know what you mean by, "tech up really smoothly" I don't think elementals need any change, you get fires and 100 mana, and there, you teched up.

Quote from nutsophast

I don't know what you mean by, "tech up really smoothly" I don't think elementals need any change, you get fires and 100 mana, and there, you teched up.

Around the 3 min mark chaos and order can rotate from gold heavy units into mana heavy units which helps a lot if one of them needs to make its miners safer from second gold row camping or such.

Elementals can tech up reasonably smoothly, but the lack of mana heavy options means they can't tech into units without mining loads of gold. This both means their inner gold will set them back further when it does run out, and that if they get second gold row camped they are set back much more than order or chaos is.

Late game when that outer gold starts to run dry elementals are screwed.

Okay, sounds reasonable. I don't really get how the other two empires will get mana heavy units in the 3 min mark though.

The way elementals rely on gold, I don't see as much of a problem or unbalance. Their mid-game is very strong since they can get advanced units very fast in comparison with order or chaos. If the elemental player cannot cripple or destroy the order or chaos player before the 9 minute mark (which for me is when order and chaos bring out their deathball) he would really need some more practice. With the powerful mid-game elementals will most likely push out from second row and guard your second row. That's just my opinion.

Quote from nutsophast

Okay, sounds reasonable. I don't really get how the other two empires will get mana heavy units in the 3 min mark though.

The way elementals rely on gold, I don't see as much of a problem or unbalance. Their mid-game is very strong since they can get advanced units very fast in comparison with order or chaos. If the elemental player cannot cripple or destroy the order or chaos player before the 9 minute mark (which for me is when order and chaos bring out their deathball) he would really need some more practice. With the powerful mid-game elementals will most likely push out from second row and guard your second row. That's just my opinion.

Wyz uploaded a very good game against Rain where he held the advantage for a really long time but couldn't end the game. It got to the 8 or something min mark, mages came out and he lost despite being the 'winning' player for most of the match because ele have no late game potential.

If your idea of balance is that ele's power spike in the mid game should always allow you to cripple or destroy the opponent then I have serious concerns. - That should always be down to skill, not empire.