I agree with DAZ, how about keeping the reasearch time for shinboi the same but take away shinboi 1 and just have shinobi 2?

I'm agreeing with you just need to know what i'm doing wrong to stop order from turtling even on castle.

Also how to improve.

You know somethings wrong with you if you let order turtle on castle

Quote from HashBrownTrials

You know somethings wrong with you if you let order turtle on castle

Lmfao. Basically this a nutshell...Order might as well surrender if they see Ele on Castle.

How to OvE on castle:

1) Split miners
2) Press P
3) Click surrender
4) Choose yes

Ai knows the pro strays, bravo *clap* *clap*.

Quote from HashBrownTrials

I agree with DAZ, how about keeping the reasearch time for shinboi the same but take away shinboi 1 and just have shinobi 2?

I think this might be a better decision.
Order players wouldn't have to repeatedly check back at base so they can insta buy shinobi two for much needed time efficiency - and the shinobi upgrade could be made a little more costly if balance issues came up in classic.

I hope I'm misunderstanding...
Are you seriously suggesting ninjas get shinobi 2 in beginning?
That would completely ruin gameplay. Because then, they would be able to 1hitKill high value units as soon as the fight starts, unlike now. This would be really unfair. I suggest having some kind of auto select that picks upgrade 2 beforehand. Although I don't really think this is necessary, anyways.

No no, shinobi '2' would still need researching, that removal of shinobi 1 would just make it much easier to order to respond in DM starts to enemy spell casters.

Chaos has 1 hit kill potential from start game in DM already, that's the problem Order deals with.

Quote from TheLegendofKaito

Yeah...but then they would still be able to 1 hit kill anyways due to the time it takes for shinobi to come out/upgrade time.
Ever think about what ele will have to go through with this? And even OvOs will become unfair as I said. If your opponent makes a mage you will be able to kill it easily and early in the first skirmish if you have a shadow. Extremely unfair. All because lazy ppl dont want to click liek 3 buttons?

Its not about how many buttons you have to click, I would gladly click 20 buttons if it means not wasting an extra 30 seconds researching a shitty ability that barely helps. Its about the research time, and with the current research time Order gets dicked around by chaos due to the fact that chaos has access to an insta kill button 30 seconds faster than order does, which means mages need to come in 40 seconds later than medusas can.

And if this nerfs elementals then thats good lol

Ele needs a nerf in DM, spam your way to victory.

This DM V Classic problem comes up a lot it seems like they need separate balances. and is that unnecessary work for the debs?

While DM and classic both create balancing issues that are not the same, it is certainly possible to balance for both with game wide changes.

Now, I didn't read everything very carefully but I pretty much know what's going on. I would go with DaZ's shorter shinobi research time. Removing shinobi 1 kind of makes everything broken, makes shadow mass even more frustrating to face. Shinobi 1 is shitty and useless I'll agree with that, but just removing it from the game offsets everything.

The main thing about removing shinobi 1 imo is the resources. Although it's not noticeable, it's there.

I suggest that we remove shinobi 1 because let's face it, it's useless, nobody uses ninjas for shinobi 1. Instead, immediately research shinobi 2 for increased resources, and a slightly shorter time to research compared to the amount of time needed to research shinobi 1 and 2.