Quote from MustRemainSecret

I think you need to read entire posts.

I am going to assume you are implying that I replied to only a part of your post.
This is my intention.
Order is never forced to turtle.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

In DM Order is forced to turtle vs ele (just saying). Walls essentially must go up in the first 20 seconds 30 max with a spear out front.

I don't see why starting mid-game it wouldn't be the same for classic but given my specialty is DM my view *might* not be entirely right (someone clarify?).

I don't understand the whole start of this post.

Nutsophast said: "in classic order will still be forced into a turtle OvC and OvE."

And Order is never forced to turtle. So, duh.

Also nutsophast, no one uses rage anymore (except in very specific scenarios) because swords get kited out and a reasonable amount of archers pressures swords. Stalling out 60 seconds to allow your swords a chance to deal with archers is a pain, and if you're getting archers yourself to hold theirs off...why are you not getting a spear instead of rage? Rage is just too risky, too hard to utilise, and easy to deal with as a general rule.

Shinobi I is complete shit anyway. Come on, let's be honest. Okay maybe back when you were 1600 going all ninjalbow, and your Shinobi I could snipe miners :o.


And MRS, the whole. freaking. point. of buffing shadows. is because Order suffers a ton of pressure without the instant killing potential Chaos gets. It's as simple as that. You want a counter to ninjas? Get a marrow, reap it, one wasted shinobi (or stoned ninja).

That's a chaos counter IF it hits (who says shadow will be out?). That's beside the point.

They don't need to be buffed imo. Their health is great considering how powerful they are (compare to infernos that get 1-hit by them often not being able to get a spell off) also, mages, marrows, archers, swords, miners, infernos, (merics?), shadows, bombers, crawlers, (deads?), waters, earths, fires ALL get 1-hit by shinobi II and medusas too, basically (can't get back to base in time to heal poison) AND they are the FASTEST unit in the game (faster than crawlers with predatory edge?) if not, second fastest AND INVINCIBILITY and you think of all units these need a buff?

PLUS, to add to this, in above posts you will see this user (yes, I) detailing the best possible buff (which I don't believe should happen) BUT if it does, unless anyone has a more fair solution, mine is the best here so far;

For the last time, if you REALLY believe that shadows NEED a buff, simply give them shinobi I on spawn and make shinobi II 60-second researchable.

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Pros for shadows:

-less micro to research 2 spells (save a few seconds - big in early-mid game) (ultimately a bit less time to get shinobi II than it takes now)
-save gold and mana (no need to research shinobi I)
-shadows have invincibility right away (huge)
-shadows can use shinobi I right away (also helpful in early game)

Trying to counter something that is right is an unintelligent thing to do. In this case, I'm right and if you can't see that there is no point responding further. I want this game to IMPROVE, be BETTER and it seems you want to see your changes made on it, for the sake of them being your opinions. Make your own game if this is the case - don't sacrifice our quality of play for your selfishness. (To DAZ)

Thanks

To my experience order is forced to turtle almost every game, at least against ele. (DM) Order can't do much about the spamming of all those units coming in all at the same time, all order can do is turtle.

I don't get how you're trying to make removing shinobi 1 less extreme by making shadows more op?

Like seriously we can just like, combine shinobi 1&2 and make it has the same research time as the combined research time and the same resources.

Quote from nutsophast

Order needs to turtle in DM and I don't think that's unfair, in classic order will still be forced into a turtle OvC and OvE. Besides it's one of the empire's greatest strengths. Order is the best and most balanced empire no doubt about it, so I don't think any change is needed for it.

Wtf. Order has to turtle in DM currently, but that makes the gameplay horribly onesided and gimmicky. Instead of fighting it becomes a binary game of breaking a turtle quickly. Order should not have to turtle in DM, Order should be able to go head to head with other empires from the start, that's balance.

Quote from Skeletonxf

Wtf. Order has to turtle in DM currently, but that makes the gameplay horribly onesided and gimmicky. Instead of fighting it becomes a binary game of breaking a turtle quickly. Order should not have to turtle in DM, Order should be able to go head to head with other empires from the start, that's balance.

Well said, I think this also.

Trying to counter something that is right is an unintelligent thing to do. In this case, I'm right and if you can't see that there is no point responding further. I want this game to IMPROVE, be BETTER and it seems you want to see your changes made on it, for the sake of them being your opinions. Make your own game if this is the case - don't sacrifice our quality of play for your selfishness. (To DAZ)

Cool. You're definitely proven right. I'm wrong. Balance arguments suddenly became objective instead of opinionated on factors. That's also why it's purely my opinion and no one has agreed with me at all.

TL;DR Doesn't understand shadow doesn't need a buff in HP, dmg, or anything else, it needs a buff to *set it up* itself because Chaos is already pressuring before Order has any real defence.

Quote from DragonArcherZ

Cool. You're definitely proven right. I'm wrong.

I wouldn't risk using sarcasm on people likely to think you're not.

@ Skeleton Balance doesn't mean that all empires need to have the same style of gameplay. This is why I've been suggesting top players keep record of match win/loss ratio, because THAT displays balance, NOT types of playstyles that one empire has to play against another empire (in fact that's the whole point of the game). Buffing turtling is equivalent to buffing tower-struggle capability as long as they win 50/50. (You don't even understand how gaming balance works and you are trying to sound like you are an expert at it)

@ DAZ, essentially no one agrees with you. Most here neither believe that shadows need a buff nor that Order can realistically survive w/o turtling in DM (both of your positions). I am not one to believe in the mob mentality, so we could still be wrong (don't think so), but with that said your implication that people are agreeing with you is unbased. Improve your reading comprehension ability, and humility.

I am proposing a buff to reduce shadow setup time by a bit (~0-10%+) and save gold and mana for production of another unit and/or wall research, etc. in early game.

You are implying that i'm proposing a change to their HP or damage but haven't once done so - because you didn't read my posts! You have a problem?

Proof:

Quote from MustRemainSecret

For the last time, if you REALLY believe that shadows NEED a buff, simply give them shinobi I on spawn and make shinobi II 60-second researchable.

Pros for shadows:

-less micro to research 2 spells (save a few seconds - big in early-mid game) (ultimately a bit less time to get shinobi II than it takes now)
-save gold and mana (no need to research shinobi I)
-shadows have invincibility right away (huge)
-shadows can use shinobi I right away (also helpful in early game)

"@ DAZ, essentially no one agrees with you. Most here neither believe that shadows need a buff nor that Order can realistically survive w/o turtling in DM (both of your positions). I am not one to believe in the mob mentality, so we could still be wrong (don't think so), but with that said your implication that people are agreeing with you is unbased. Improve your reading comprehension ability, and humility."

> Shadows need a buff - uh, read the thread. There's people that say shadowrath could definitely be changed.

But let's look at it again. Say we don't give shinobi this extra time. This allows early mage to still be viable in DM. Then let's change medusa so it doesn't have the instant killing ability it has right now, on Wyz's point of making petrify a researchable ability (probably with a fair time as well), which nerfs chaos in that respect.

I've read all your posts. But you keep saying "Ninjas don't need a buff, they have Hp, they have dmg, they have etc. etc. etc." I never said you proposed a change. But you keep bringing it up like I'm presenting a buff there when I'm proposing a buff in setup time.

"I agree with DAZ" Hash
"I think this might be a better decision." Skele / agreeing on a variation
"Its not about how many buttons you have to click, I would gladly click 20 buttons if it means not wasting an extra 30 seconds researching a shitty ability that barely helps. Its about the research time, and with the current research time Order gets dicked around by chaos due to the fact that chaos has access to an insta kill button 30 seconds faster than order does" Jerrytt on shinobi research (which says there's a problem - although I just proposed perhaps if we nerf medusa instead of buffing shinobi)
(_Ai_)

So there are people that agree. Don't make a point of "essentially" no one agrees because that implies none of their opinions hold worth. "Most" =/= "At least half"

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"Order can realistically survive w/o turtling in DM (both of your positions)."

Uh no, I never said that. Don't tell me to improve my reading comprehension when I was talking about CLASSIC because nutsophast said "Order is forced to turtle OvC and OvE in Classic" Yes this is a Deathmatch discussion thread, but classic was brought up as ideally we don't want to have seperate stats for different modes.

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Forget it dude. I'm done here.

"Reason: truth and justice" seems legit

> justice

Deathmatch really does cause lags cause starts with the stupid lots of miners lags me and lose 100 points that day ._.

The only reason Order's forced back is because Chaos has lead in offensive power with instant kill ability with a medusa spawn 40 seconds in and elementals has earths that spawn in under 4 seconds. It's not enough time for Order to seize its full use of resources to amount an equal attack force. This thread doesn't need 6 pages, I don't see what on earth could keep this going.

Quote from WyzDM

The only reason Order's forced back is because Chaos has lead in offensive power with instant kill ability with a medusa spawn 40 seconds in and elementals has earths that spawn in under 4 seconds. It's not enough time for Order to seize its full use of resources to amount an equal attack force. This thread doesn't need 6 pages, I don't see what on earth could keep this going.

MRS completely cherrypicking our points every post.


Order's need on shinobi quicker at start game in the DM matchup has been discussed very well and clearly.
No one uses shinobi 1 in classic, this would not buff order in classic by anything meaningful, this would give order a more equal start game in DM, nothing more, hopefully nothing less. Toning down those crazy Chaos and Ele strengths should hopefully also help out the DM startgame.

Just making clear that I "cherrypicked" your post maybe, not everyone's.

Not being top-tier in classic or probably DM for that matter I have nothing more to add.