So, I just realized, is everyone arguing about buffs/nerfs/game changes on all this for the sake of argument?
Do the devs even read this?

Anyways my 2c is that order is not forced to turtle, that is a player's own decision. It all comes down to the strategy you use and how much risk you plan to take. I have seen good ele players been beat just by sword/ arch/ mage/ meric spam. Not suggesting this ofc, as it would be quite difficult to master, but you just need risk and good decisions.

Yes, and chaos isnt forced to start with 2 crawlers 2 miners against order. Its the chaos players choice because EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS.

The only reason Order's forced back is because Chaos has lead in offensive power with instant kill ability with a medusa spawn 40 seconds in and elementals has earths that spawn in under 4 seconds. It's not enough time for Order to seize its full use of resources to amount an equal attack force. This thread doesn't need 6 pages, I don't see what on earth could keep this going.

cause MRS saying Order doesn't need more time / faster to setup. 12/11

Neither is Wyz. All that he is saying is that AT THE START, Order doesn't have the same resources available to it that ele and chaos do. It DOESN'T mean there is imbalance, imbalance is measured by WIN/LOSS RATIO.

In determining balance, it doesn't matter who says what (including myself) or how many agree with whomever about whatever - all that matters, ultimately, is empire v empire win/loss ratios. PERIOD.

Order might very-well need a buff but it depends on the ratios.

P.S. Kaito, hopefully God-willing they do (they probably do?).

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Neither is Wyz. All that he is saying is that AT THE START, Order doesn't have the same resources available to it that ele and chaos do. It DOESN'T mean there is imbalance, imbalance is measured by WIN/LOSS RATIO.

In determining balance, it doesn't matter who says what (including myself) or how many agree with whomever about whatever - all that matters, ultimately, is empire v empire win/loss ratios. PERIOD.

Order might very-well need a buff but it depends on the ratios.

P.S. Kaito, hopefully God-willing they do (they probably do?).

Win loss ratio is no measure of balance at all.

You have no idea how stupid that claim is.

Win/Loss ratio is one of the worst ways you can try to balance a game. It doesn't tell you a thing about what the balancing problem is, and is heavy spoiled by all the non high level matches which will destroy any credibility to your data being accurate for balance.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-2-viable-options
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-3-fairness
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-4-intuition
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/game-balance-and-yomi

A quote:
I want to emphasize just how important it is to get expert opinions on this, rather than adding up numbers from matches. Experts can get a good sense of what's going on in a match much, much sooner than data will reflect. I mean like months or years sooner, even. Imagine two experts played a certain matchup 20 times and the more they played, the more unfair it got. In our example, there is a certain way of playing that the other character just can't deal with and both players are coming to realize that truth more and more. It's entirely possible that they (correctly!) declare it an 8-2 matchup even though their results are no where near that bad. Lots of their games were played before they fully understood what's going on. And if we lump in the data from anyone other than experts, it's likely to be worse than ignoring it because they probably aren't playing the match well enough.

Order is never forced to turtle. Continuing, I do understand Elementals and Chaos have an early game advantage against order. However, ele loses all this in mid-late game, so your problem it seems is chaos. I myself don't believe order needs a buff, and why it has to be shadow-wrath, which will ruin the game. Your shadow-wrath buff might improve OvC game-play, but will make ele even more useless. This is something that cannot be overlooked. I think either buff something else in order, or nerf chaos.

Quote from DragonArcherZ

I don't understand the whole start of this post.

Nutsophast said: "in classic order will still be forced into a turtle OvC and OvE."

And Order is never forced to turtle. So, duh.

Also nutsophast, no one uses rage anymore (except in very specific scenarios) because swords get kited out and a reasonable amount of archers pressures swords. Stalling out 60 seconds to allow your swords a chance to deal with archers is a pain, and if you're getting archers yourself to hold theirs off...why are you not getting a spear instead of rage? Rage is just too risky, too hard to utilise, and easy to deal with as a general rule.

Shinobi I is complete shit anyway. Come on, let's be honest. Okay maybe back when you were 1600 going all ninjalbow, and your Shinobi I could snipe miners :o.


And MRS, the whole. freaking. point. of buffing shadows. is because Order suffers a ton of pressure without the instant killing potential Chaos gets. It's as simple as that. You want a counter to ninjas? Get a marrow, reap it, one wasted shinobi (or stoned ninja).

Whoops, I meant DM not classic.

For the love of nachos do not make ninja buffs come out faster, it's plenty fine in classic. Just slow things down for the other empires in small ways. Adjust eles, and perhaps make the stone resource purchasable and opt to make venom flux the start ability.

If medusas took longer slightly or the stone ability took time and more cost, it would decrease the effectiveness of medusa armies and start game ohks. That's all, and I think everyone sees it. So... what else is there to talk about?

Wyz, please don't post on a balance thread in an RTS game forum. These things are where any semblance of logical discussion goes to die.

Once again, didn't read what we wrote but somehow you felt qualified to respond to it (doesn't make sense?).

Multiple times I have said matches only from top-tier(s) should be considered (2000+).

I keep telling myself that writing on this forum is essentially pointless because it's filled mostly with people who ultimately could careless about the game. Sorry, but arguing against someone is not helping to improve the game. If you don't like someone, it doesn't make their views incorrect.

Top-tier win/loss ratio is in fact, without question, the BEST way to measure balance. You can't claim that C is OP in DM if both matchups are 50/50. Right now we don't know so we can't comment with certainty, no matter how it twists.

Quote from WyzDM

For the love of nachos do not make ninja buffs come out faster, it's plenty fine in classic. Just slow things down for the other empires in small ways. Adjust eles, and perhaps make the stone resource purchasable and opt to make venom flux the start ability.

If medusas took longer slightly or the stone ability took time and more cost, it would decrease the effectiveness of medusa armies and start game ohks. That's all, and I think everyone sees it. So... what else is there to talk about?

And burritos and tacos.

EDIT: ^ TRUTH

Top-tier win/loss ratio is in fact, without question, the BEST way to measure balance. You can't claim that C is OP in DM if both matchups are 50/50. Right now we don't know so we can't comment with certainty, no matter how it twists.

Lelelelelelel logic dabes 13/11

win/loss ratio without Q is dabes way to measure balance

^^ don't need to be on crack to see why that's obv perf

Considering he gave real evidence, and you ignored, it, lool.

Btw, top tier = 2k? Give me any random 2k order player and I'll beat them minimum 4/5 games.

More seriously, say Order players is more skilled than Chaos players. This is a natural part of game fluctuation because of player's choice of empire, new generations over old, etc. So theoretically, winrates should be something like 60/40 because Order player isn't wasting lots of gold or microing badly but Chaos player keeps stacking thousands of gold. If it's 50/50, then something's wrong.

"I keep telling myself that writing on this forum is essentially pointless because it's filled mostly with people who ultimately could careless about the game. Sorry, but arguing against someone is not helping to improve the game. If you don't like someone, it doesn't make their views incorrect."

In the nicest way possible, please leave. You're not helping. Don't be a sorrowandsadness.

Quote from WyzDM

For the love of nachos do not make ninja buffs come out faster, it's plenty fine in classic. Just slow things down for the other empires in small ways. Adjust eles, and perhaps make the stone resource purchasable and opt to make venom flux the start ability.

If medusas took longer slightly or the stone ability took time and more cost, it would decrease the effectiveness of medusa armies and start game ohks. That's all, and I think everyone sees it. So... what else is there to talk about?

^He's right you know.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Multiple times I have said matches only from top-tier(s) should be considered (2000+).

You do know that most people that discusses in this thread are above 2k, right? DAZ, skele, hash, rain, me (to an extent :p) is above 2k. I also dare say that these people are more experienced than you in the game.

I agree with wyz, and the nachos part.