That's pretty much what I just said lol.

Well, it's not really "just" when it's 2 pages behind, and no one replied. Plus I had more stuff like "more gold/mana" "slightly shorter time than shinobi 1+2"

Your call.

You brought up some reasonable points, but it's really an unnecessary change. I know it's a shitty spell, but I think getting rid of it will offset the game even if you increase the cost since in mid-game you access resources very quickly, unless you give it a ridiculous price. Besides it's been in the game for two years just like the bug where you can't attack a wall with spears in front.

Quote from _Ai_

Well, it's not really "just" when it's 2 pages behind, and no one replied. Plus I had more stuff like "more gold/mana" "slightly shorter time than shinobi 1+2"

Your call.

I know, I wasn't specific. Skele replied to it btw :P

Ok it makes sense that shadows would have shinobi 1 w/o needing research. Make the shinobi 2 research 60 seconds and it's a great buff for Order. It will cost 1/2 not needing to first get shinobi 1 AND save micro time clicking to research 2 spells, now only 1 (every second counts) AND shadows start with shinobi 1 which hey that's pretty good for many reasons.

EDIT: And this is coming from someone who doesn't necessarily want a shadow buff lol.

So either shadows start with shinobi one and shinobi two can then be researched, or shadows start with nothing but only need to research shinobi 2. Which would make for better gameplay assuming balanced research costs and times for both?

It's not like Medusa qeus quickly...
I disagree with buffing shadows..
As nutsophast said, they have been in the game play too long without problem and this will offset other balances as well. CvO is currently fine, it's E that needs change.

Buffing shadows is terrible, isn't shadow massing frustrating enough to face? Rage takes 60 seconds to research, that doesn't stop people from using it (if they use it at all). Order already has many powerful tools like mages and turtling, if you give them an insta-kill ability, they just might be op.

Okay, let's put it into perspective.

Classic: Ninjas are crappy early-mid game, late game has its uses but 60 seconds, why do you need 60 seconds to setup shinobi? Aka the buff doesn't really effect Classic at all.
DM: Order struggles vs Chaos and Ele because Chaos has instant killing potential, and Elemental has ridiculously fast queue times. Order has neither, because shadowrath take 60 seconds to be able to shinobi, which gives chaos the ability to pressure without the shinobi in mind.

"Rage takes 60 seconds to research, that doesn't stop people from using it"

That's why rage is used tons right?

---

"It's been in the game for 2 years" is not a valid argument. It's if X issue could use a change or is a problem, then it should be considered.

"if they use it at all". Not saying that it's used very often but it's used sometimes and obviously 60 seconds doesn't stop them. Even then that wasn't my point, my point is that 60 seconds isn't really a restriction and not a big deal.

Order needs to turtle in DM and I don't think that's unfair, in classic order will still be forced into a turtle OvC and OvE. Besides it's one of the empire's greatest strengths. Order is the best and most balanced empire no doubt about it, so I don't think any change is needed for it.

I think it is valid argument, because the fact that it was in the game for 2 years means that strategies and gameplay was based off the fact you need to research shinobi 1 and 2. Totally removing shinobi 1 from the game would change a lot of things and offset strategies and gameplay that was forged in the 2 years. Besides, most people have no problem researching both abilities, if you're good enough to be 2k you should be able to handle researching it. It is an unnecessary change.

This is my last word on the discussion. I don't want to clutter up the thread and I'm done with this.

...dafuq

How is Order *forced* to turtle OvC and OvE.

In DM Order is forced to turtle vs ele (just saying). Walls essentially must go up in the first 20 seconds 30 max with a spear out front.

I don't see why starting mid-game it wouldn't be the same for classic but given my specialty is DM my view *might* not be entirely right (someone clarify?).

It is possible to defend ele w/o walls but it's very hard to do (in DM).

EDIT: With that said (and previous post), no more needs to be said from my end. I disagree with shadows needing a buff they already fulfill their purpose imo (ex. they one-hit infernos, mages, basically medusas, etc.) they are powerful for their cost and can be invincible including to freeze... if there is a buff just start them with shinobi 1 and make shinobi 2 researchable 60 seconds.

Order is never >forced< to turtle, people usually just start off with turtle-ish strategies against E. I can say now~ turtles are boring and it's rarely someone has turtled against me and won anyways. If you have the misconception that order has to turtle, I suggest you need more experience~

I think you need to read entire posts.

Quote from nutsophast

"if they use it at all". Not saying that it's used very often but it's used sometimes and obviously 60 seconds doesn't stop them. Even then that wasn't my point, my point is that 60 seconds isn't really a restriction and not a big deal.

Order needs to turtle in DM and I don't think that's unfair, in classic order will still be forced into a turtle OvC and OvE. Besides it's one of the empire's greatest strengths. Order is the best and most balanced empire no doubt about it, so I don't think any change is needed for it.

I think it is valid argument, because the fact that it was in the game for 2 years means that strategies and gameplay was based off the fact you need to research shinobi 1 and 2. Totally removing shinobi 1 from the game would change a lot of things and offset strategies and gameplay that was forged in the 2 years. Besides, most people have no problem researching both abilities, if you're good enough to be 2k you should be able to handle researching it. It is an unnecessary change.

This is my last word on the discussion. I don't want to clutter up the thread and I'm done with this.

It's actually a great restriction. Why people don't use it anymore because it takes waaaay too long for it to be done and rage is only useful when you have a bunch of swords instead of 2 or 3. And by the time you do have a bunch of swords and rage up, I can assure you it's mid game and you'll need to tech up. In the end. In the end, rage is a mid-early thing that can only be used if you have the right conditions. Plus with people starting with archers nowadays rage meta won't be a thing until there's a buff/nerf.

I can assure you in my 2 years of experience in the game (on and off but still) no one uses shinobi 1. As time changes, strategies do. Nerfs, buffs changes the meta a lot, which is why adapting is a skill that you need to have. If we didn't have a problem with researching both abilities, why is it brought up?