Quote from Exilement

I wouldn't be okay with becoming one but if the alternative is certain death and the risk is fairly low I don't see how it's not a respectable decision.

That specific risk I'm using is an example of the overall threat. That you could be someone horrible. Yes, you can die or become a paraplegic in a car. I'm not saying you avoid doing anything that has miniscule chances of going wrong. I have concerns with SO much more of the mind wipe on a logical basis (like who you are or how you'd learn things). I'm harping on about the child molestation thing because it is an extreme example of what could go wrong and no one yet is putting their hand up and saying "Yes I could be a child molester, but my own life is more important." I have already conceded that it would be a logical thing to do for some people. I'm just saying I can't respect those people or their decision. Thats all I ever said. It would be logical to do it, but I, Nish, an individual would feel like making that choice would make me a turd.

Quote from Exilement

I wouldn't be okay with becoming one but if the alternative is certain death and the risk is fairly low I don't see how it's not a respectable decision. I don't want to die in a car accident or be a paraplegic but I still get in the car every morning. It just seems odd that this specific risk is one you're so adamant about avoiding.

I'm saying turning into a child molester is far more horrifying and disgusting than ending up paralyzed in a car accident.

There is a HUGE difference between attempting to live a normal life (that is prone to natural freak accidents) and, on the other hand, CHOOSING and VOLUNTEERING yourself for a procedure that could lead you to be someone who is better off dead (a child molester in an extreme example).

I fear no one is getting my point. Everyone seems to think that I'm advising against it because you could just as easily have kids who are child molesters etc. Like I've stated earlier, my point isn't about bringing more child molesters into this world, or harming more children. I'm talking about deliberately volunteering yourself to a procedure that has a microscopic (bit still extant) chance that you could turn into someone truly horrible. Again, I even told Devour SEVERAL posts ago, I do think it would be a logical decision for many people, but I personally would find it absolutely repulsive. I also said that if someone chooses the mindwipe without thinking it through, then I wouldn't fault them as a person. But if they consider the chances of turning into someone truly vile, and still choose the procedure, don't ask me not to be repelled by that choice. Thats all. Added to this, with Crank's theory of "atleast your family and friends are helping you" theory, it is even more troubling. Because not only might you be a manipulative, deceiving son of a bitch... not only might you be a wretched person... but you now have a built in support group who are telling you "dont worry, its not your fault" and stripping you of any personal responsibility that you feel, which makes it even more vile.

Gotcha. I'm honestly just playing devil's advocate, if given the choice I'd rather have my body die along with my mind than try and start over after what makes me "me" is gone for good.

I agree. I also think a 3 year life sentence is more than what MANY, MANY cancer patients get. So that way, IF you have brain cancer, 3 years is actually a massive gift.

This really is a great topic because there are so many ways of looking at how something like that might happen. If we had a few rule changes from envoy, my position might change. Especially if he says that our likes/dislikes will be altered but not to GREAT lengths, and that we will retain our basic skills and understanding of the world despite losing our memories, and only the personality would change. I think my answer would still be no, but at least then I would have less trouble understanding the argument supporting the mindwipe. Right now, I think some people are irritated with how I'm badgering the point and how stubborn I'm being about disrespecting the other side of the coin. But with the current conditions in place, I don't see how I can NOT be repelled by the mind wipe choice.

Nish, first off, I've been thinking about it and I was a bit of a condescending dick when we started going at at. I sincerely apologize for that.

That being said, I stand by getting the mindwipe. As an optimist, I have an extremely hard time seeing how you get such a death grip on such a bleak possibility the same way you can't see why I can back it. To level with you, I've always expected to die young. It really wouldn't surprise me, I'm probably going to get nailed by a car on my bike one day and that'll just be it. So I want to live while I'm alive, and I'm going to fight for my spot on this rock until I lose it.

That being said, I'm not saying I think my life is better than others or people's who I could potentially hurt. I'm not saying I'm trying to risk them, rather I have faith in the people I know and the system overall.

The only way I'd get involved in this situation is if it was performed by actual doctors, was an actual procedure at an actual hospital and I've already exhausted all of my other options. I'm not clinging to life because I just want to life or be famous for some new procedure or something, I'd want to live because I hadn't accomplished anything that made a big impact in the scheme of things, at least for the people I love. There are things that I want to do, and can't just close that book on my dreams (I know, this is a contradiction, but the main two are family and somehow helping someone in a big way). Sure, three years is a lot of time, and maybe I could still do something important, but that's going to come with the weight of questioning my reasons, like if I'm just doing it because I'm dying, or if I even wouldn't do it at all so people wouldn't miss me when I'm gone.

Because this would have to be an actual procedure that I've been assuming, it's also a safe bet that I'd be under surveillance for a little bit, just to make sure I'm holding up okay. They'd more than likely be monitoring my brain, and I like to think that they'd be looking for red flags like the ones you've mentioned. As far as manipulating the people I care about goes, I credit my friends to be intelligent enough to know something's wrong and get me psychological help, which I'm sure they'd be looking out for considering I lost a chuck of my brain. I might expect to die young, but I have a little bit of savings that should at least be able to cover me a little bit. I wouldn't expect them to cover anything, if I'm jacked up, I want a concrete cell, or at least this me does.

And lastly, even if something did go wrong and the system failed and I did something horrible, there'd likely be notes on my procedure, so it's likely we could pinpoint what exactly makes a person find children attractive. It would be hypothetically possible to cure pedophilia with a little bit of surgery, as slim a chance as that may be. Maybe not my generation, but perhaps the next one, and although I can't get behind sacrifice, I'd like my friends children and grandchildren to grow up in a world where they don't have to be scared.

I don't know if you identify as a pessimist or a realist, but as an optimist I sincerely doubt we'll be pulling the other to our side. Feel free to reply to this and take the last word, but I'm going to start to veer from this thread. I'm not a big fan of spending the day with the topic of child molestation just chilling out on my mind

Quote from Exilement

Gotcha. I'm honestly just playing devil's advocate, if given the choice I'd rather have my body die along with my mind than try and start over after what makes me "me" is gone for good.

I think I speak for the majority of the forum when I say we wouldn't mind what makes you "you" dying.

I mean, this argument, to me at least, is an example of altruistic suicide. You're weighing the value of other people's lives against your own.

However, I feel like a lot of you are implying that you're the best you'll ever be.

If you think of it on a number line, there's an infinite number of values greater than what you are, and an infinite number of values below you, and the chances of being born a saint are just as much as being born a pedophile.

I mean, now that I put it that way it would make sense to die in 3 years. by doing the mind-wipe you're not only essentially killing yourself, you're also placing those around you in jeopardy, since it's an absolute random.

Quote from Captain Cook

I think I speak for the majority of the forum when I say we wouldn't mind what makes you "you" dying.

I mean, this argument, to me at least, is an example of altruistic suicide. You're weighing the value of other people's lives against your own.

However, I feel like a lot of you are implying that you're the best you'll ever be.

If you think of it on a number line, there's an infinite number of values greater than what you are, and an infinite number of values below you, and the chances of being born a saint are just as much as being born a pedophile.

I mean, now that I put it that way it would make sense to die in 3 years. by doing the mind-wipe you're not only essentially killing yourself, you're also placing those around you in jeopardy, since it's an absolute random.

The argument people are making isn't that they're the best they'll ever be, it's that even if the operation makes them better as a person, it would no longer be them. It would be as if there were an entirely new individual in your old body. You would cease to exist, which is the same as death.
But yeah, even if the argument is stay alive just for your family and friends at least, it still doesn't make sense since those people will likely not remain friends with this new person you'd become, and there's no guarantee your family will love the new you the same, given the fact that they'll always remember how you used to be.

shut the fuck up drone how dare you address me like that, cunt

no but that's an interesting point. your relationships would be completely destroyed.

Quote from Crank

Nish, first off, I've been thinking about it and I was a bit of a condescending dick when we started going at at. I sincerely apologize for that.

I don't think you were being condescending. I enjoy a little verbal pugilism. :)

Quote from Crank

That being said, I stand by getting the mindwipe. As an optimist, I have an extremely hard time seeing how you get such a death grip on such a bleak possibility the same way you can't see why I can back it. To level with you, I've always expected to die young. It really wouldn't surprise me, I'm probably going to get nailed by a car on my bike one day and that'll just be it. So I want to live while I'm alive, and I'm going to fight for my spot on this rock until I lose it.

When you say "I want to live while I'm alive"... I agree with the word "Alive" but I disagree with the word "I". The topic of the debate clearly states that you will be a new person. So at most, it is some other guy, who has no memory of you, using your body to do whatever he wants in the world. Whatever it is that makes Crank Crank is gone.

Quote from Crank

That being said, I'm not saying I think my life is better than others or people's who I could potentially hurt. I'm not saying I'm trying to risk them, rather I have faith in the people I know and the system overall.

I don't see what having faith in them has to do it. The debate it not whether they will fail you or not. It is whether you will fail them, and fail the dignity and integrity of the man that you once were.

Quote from Crank

The only way I'd get involved in this situation is if it was performed by actual doctors, was an actual procedure at an actual hospital and I've already exhausted all of my other options. I'm not clinging to life because I just want to life or be famous for some new procedure or something, I'd want to live because I hadn't accomplished anything that made a big impact in the scheme of things, at least for the people I love. There are things that I want to do, and can't just close that book on my dreams (I know, this is a contradiction, but the main two are family and somehow helping someone in a big way). Sure, three years is a lot of time, and maybe I could still do something important, but that's going to come with the weight of questioning my reasons, like if I'm just doing it because I'm dying, or if I even wouldn't do it at all so people wouldn't miss me when I'm gone.

Again, you're missing the point. The NEW you may not even give a shit about accomplishing anything. I think you need to read the OP a lot more. It alters your likes/dislikes. There is no guarantee that the NEW you will want to do anything fruitful with your life. In fact the new YOU may not even accomplish as much as the old you within those 3 years. The procedure changes your personality and your ambitions.

Quote from Crank

Because this would have to be an actual procedure that I've been assuming, it's also a safe bet that I'd be under surveillance for a little bit, just to make sure I'm holding up okay. They'd more than likely be monitoring my brain, and I like to think that they'd be looking for red flags like the ones you've mentioned. As far as manipulating the people I care about goes, I credit my friends to be intelligent enough to know something's wrong and get me psychological help, which I'm sure they'd be looking out for considering I lost a chuck of my brain. I might expect to die young, but I have a little bit of savings that should at least be able to cover me a little bit. I wouldn't expect them to cover anything, if I'm jacked up, I want a concrete cell, or at least this me does.

I am again left scratching my head at this. I accept all these points. I just don't see what they have to do with the main debate. Yeah sure, your friends are around. Lets say they even KNOW about the mind wipe. They are being careful and sentimental. Now what? Does that make the NEW you automatically like them back? Or is it going to make a difference at all? I don't know why you're telling me all this because it is inconsequential in my mind whether having 'love and care' negates getting your mind wipes.

Quote from Crank

And lastly, even if something did go wrong and the system failed and I did something horrible, there'd likely be notes on my procedure, so it's likely we could pinpoint what exactly makes a person find children attractive. It would be hypothetically possible to cure pedophilia with a little bit of surgery, as slim a chance as that may be. Maybe not my generation, but perhaps the next one, and although I can't get behind sacrifice, I'd like my friends children and grandchildren to grow up in a world where they don't have to be scared.

Haha nope. I'm not saying a pedophilia hormone was injected into your brain making you that way. They just did an erratic procedure that altered you in many ways, and pedophilia might be one of them. Also, your willing to risk being a pedophile for the hypothetical scenario that it might lead to a cure? Even then, it only cures pedophilia from mindwipes, not general pedophilia, so your children and grandchildren must still be very afraid.

You're starting to make your own assumptions and deductions about the mindwipe procedure based on absolutely nothing suggested in the OP, which might end up taking a turn for the worse.

Quote from Crank

I don't know if you identify as a pessimist or a realist, but as an optimist I sincerely doubt we'll be pulling the other to our side. Feel free to reply to this and take the last word, but I'm going to start to veer from this thread. I'm not a big fan of spending the day with the topic of child molestation just chilling out on my mind

Being an optimist comes with the responsibility of following through on making the world a better place. There is a difference between optimism and blind optimism. Saying I would take this procedure because I choose to believe that only good things will happen to me (when the consequences if you are wrong might be disastrous) is the latter. It is mutton dressed as lamb.